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V-brakes vs. Center-pull brakes

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V-brakes vs. Center-pull brakes

Old 11-19-22, 11:17 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...anything is reliable and lasts a long time, if you can fix it yourself, parts are readily available, and you don't mind doing the work. You just end up in some odd places, doing roadside repairs, sometimes in the dark. Even old air cooled VW's were "reliable", if you knew how to fix them. And those were terrible cars. NOw, I think that in California, we just send all our old cars to Mexico or some state in the deep South, with fewer emissions restrictions.
I daily-drove an air-cooled bug for three or four years back when I was a mechanic in a previous life and yes, it was a terrible car, but not because of reliability or any lack of fun driving it. The floor boards were rusted through (natch!) and the rudimentary electrical system was iffy, but both of these issues - and many more - were easy and cheap fixes. I even got the heater to work!
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Old 11-20-22, 09:52 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Linear pull refers (indirectly) to the mechanical advantage at the lever. They're also called long pull. The alternative to linear pull is short pull. It has to do with how much cable the lever pulls and how much mechanical advantage (leverage) the brake levers provide, and of course that needs to be matched properly with the brakes. It has nothing to do with the way the cable lines up across the brake arms.
Try again. Yes, they pull more cable but that has nothing to do with why they are call “linear pull”. Wikipedia does a good job of describing why they are called “linear pull” or “direct pull”

Since there is no intervening mechanism between the cable and the arms, the design is called "direct-pull". And since the arms move the same distance that the cable moves with regard to its housing, the design is also called "linear-pull".
It makes no sense to call the brake a “linear pull” based on the lever since the lever pulls in the same way as a center pull brake like a cantilever does. The difference is only in the amount of pull.

For further evidence that the lever isn’t why it is call “linear pull”, consider that you can put a travel agent on a linear pull brake to make it work with long pull brakes by putting a circle in the cable. We also don’t call mechanical disc brakes “linear” even though mountain bike versions use long pull levers. Further, many brakes come with the ability to change the pull from long to short so that they can be used with either linear or cantilever (or other short pull) brakes. Most inexpensive brake levers are made with mold marks for short pull and long pull, although they are usually only drilled for long pull brakes.
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Old 11-20-22, 09:57 PM
  #103  
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I recently replaced some cheap ProMax V brakes that I could never get adjusted properly with Shimano Deore V brakes for less than $50.00.
I believe these to be far the best value V brakes that one can buy new.
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Old 11-21-22, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
..
"And since the arms move the same distance that the cable moves with regard to its housing, the design is also called "linear-pull".

It makes no sense to call the brake a “linear pull” based on the lever since the lever pulls in the same way as a center pull brake like a cantilever does. The difference is only in the amount of pull.
Correct - that's what I said. It has to do with the cable pull/mechanical advantage of the lever.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
.... “Linear” brakes are called that because the cable pulls linearly across the brake arms instead of vertically like almost all other cable actuated brakes.
That is what I was responding to. It is wrong - it has nothing to do with the physical orientation of the cable with regard to the the brakes and whether anything is horizontal or vertical. As you learned when you Googled it, it's about cable pull and mechanical advantage (leverage) of the levers.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
We also don’t call mechanical disc brakes “linear” even though mountain bike versions use long pull levers...
Sure we do. As in "I need to find linear pull brake levers to go with these disc brakes." Direct pull or long pull are two other names for the same thing.

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Old 11-21-22, 09:36 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Correct - that's what I said. It has to do with the cable pull/mechanical advantage of the lever.

That is what I was responding to. It is wrong - it has nothing to do with the physical orientation of the cable with regard to the the brakes and whether anything is horizontal or vertical. As you learned when you Googled it, it's about cable pull and mechanical advantage (leverage) of the levers.
I have looked all over on Google and can find nothing that says linear brakes have a 1:1 pull. In fact, there are lots to articles out there about the lower mechanical advantage of linear brakes because of the need to pull more cable.

Sure we do. As in "I need to find linear pull brake levers to go with these disc brakes." Direct pull or long pull are two other names for the same thing.
Now you are just being silly. I’ve never heard anyone (who knew what they were talking about) ask for “linear pull brake levers” for disc brakes. Long pull, yes, but not “linear pull”. Mechanical discs can be made with arms so that they can be used with short pull or long pull levers. The only reason early ones used long pull levers was because that’s what most people have transitioned to when mountain bikes went from cantilevers to linear pull brakes.
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Old 11-21-22, 11:06 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I have looked all over on Google and can find nothing that says linear brakes have a 1:1 pull. In fact, there are lots to articles out there about the lower mechanical advantage of linear brakes because of the need to pull more cable.

Now you are just being silly. I’ve never heard anyone (who knew what they were talking about) ask for “linear pull brake levers” for disc brakes. Long pull, yes, but not “linear pull”. Mechanical discs can be made with arms so that they can be used with short pull or long pull levers. The only reason early ones used long pull levers was because that’s what most people have transitioned to when mountain bikes went from cantilevers to linear pull brakes.
OK, sure. You're arguing semantics - "linear pull" refers to the brakes, while "long pull" refers to the levers. From this article: "Linear-pull brakes require "long-pull" brake levers." https://www.centurycycles.com/tips/t...ake-pg1303.htm

But I think I could walk into just about any bike store and ask for linear-pull brake levers, and they would understand. Especially since there are only two kinds, and the other is universally called "short pull". And also there is no such thing as linear-pull brakes that use anything but long-pull levers. The two (brakes and levers) have to match.

My original point was that it has nothing to do with horizontal or vertical orientation of cables, brake arms, levers, or anything. It's about the cable pull and mechanical advantage, not the physical orientation in space as you had originally described.

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Old 11-21-22, 12:44 PM
  #107  
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Jeff Neese - you're confused about a lot of things here. The fact that they're called "linear pull" brakes has nothing to do with the length of the the V-brake arms (the ones down by the rims.) Both "regular" (105-108mm, sometimes longer) V-brakes and so-called "mini" V-brakes (around 85mm) are "linear pull" brakes. The "linearity" comes from the fact that the cable and cable housing actuate a given V-brake by "directly" pulling the brake arms together and squeezing - or pinching, if you will - the rim. Hence the other name for V-brakes: "direct pull" brakes, meaning no intermediate cable between the main cable and the brake arms like the one cantilever brakes have.

And none of the above has anything to do with the way a typical flat-handlebar brake lever works. Which is why I could (and I did) have two different bikes that used identical brake levers, with one running rim V-brakes and the other running mechanical disk brakes. Even though the levers applied the braking action through a liver on the caliper that pivoted around an axis, absolutely no one would've called the levers on the bike with disk brakes "arc pull!"

Which is why, just as there are long-pull and short-pull V-brakes, there are also long-pull and short-pull mechanical disk brake calipers; this was necessary for the industry's transmission from rim brakes - with V-brakes having become the most ubiquitous type of rim brake outside of road bikes - and the exploding popularity of entry-level (with no shortage of premium) mechanical disk brakes. What needed to be matched is the amount of pull at the lever (long vs. short) with that of brake being used (long-pull or short-pull, regardless of it being a rim V-brake or a mechanical disk brake caliper.) That's why there are "long-pull" levers (in that the blade's pivot is farther away towards the handlebar from the cable barrel anchor) and "short-pull" levers (the two are much closer to each other.) SRAM's/Avid's FR-5 brake levers - and the kajillion clones/knockoffs simplified things for both manufacturers and consumers by being "medium-pull" brake levers that worked well (whether equally so or not is up for debate) with both long- and short-pull brakes - no matter what type they are.
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Old 11-21-22, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
“Linear” brakes are called that because the cable pulls linearly across the brake arms instead of vertically
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
since the arms move the same distance that the cable moves with regard to its housing, the design is also called "linear-pull".
So which is it?
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Old 11-21-22, 01:28 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
So which is it?
Both statements you highlighted are correct. It's just that they came in two different - but related - contexts.
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Old 11-21-22, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Both statements you highlighted are correct. It's just that they came in two different - but related - contexts.
Regardless of context, I'm skeptical that both are correct. I'm not sure that either are.
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Old 11-21-22, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
... The good news is that the dealerships have these very expensive diagnostic machines, that make it easier to run stuff down quickly. So you save on labor hours and costs.
Retired car mechanic here. Last 30 years spent as a diagnostic technician at new car dealers, mostly GM. Electric car certified for 10 years and diesel certified, too.
I diagnosed thousands of cars and trucks and I can assure you there is no machine which diagnoses cars. What we do have is data displayed on a laptop or hand held scan tool, on older cars. Also, we have access to technical assistance from factory supported sources.

I think the biggest advantage to working on the same vehicles is learning the tendencies of a model can make diagnosing the next one go smoother. Remember, most electronic issues are intermittent. Getting an electronic failure to repeat while you are working on it is sometimes impossible.
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Old 11-21-22, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
most electronic issues are intermittent. Getting an electronic failure to repeat while you are working on it is sometimes impossible.
All the more reason to eliminate them altogether.

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Old 11-21-22, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Jeff Neese - you're confused about a lot of things here. The fact that they're called "linear pull" brakes has nothing to do with the length of the the V-brake arms (the ones down by the rims.) Both "regular" (105-108mm, sometimes longer) V-brakes and so-called "mini" V-brakes (around 85mm) are "linear pull" brakes. The "linearity" comes from the fact that the cable and cable housing actuate a given V-brake by "directly" pulling the brake arms together and squeezing - or pinching, if you will - the rim. Hence the other name for V-brakes: "direct pull" brakes, meaning no intermediate cable between the main cable and the brake arms like the one cantilever brakes have.

And none of the above has anything to do with the way a typical flat-handlebar brake lever works. Which is why I could (and I did) have two different bikes that used identical brake levers, with one running rim V-brakes and the other running mechanical disk brakes. Even though the levers applied the braking action through a liver on the caliper that pivoted around an axis, absolutely no one would've called the levers on the bike with disk brakes "arc pull!"

Which is why, just as there are long-pull and short-pull V-brakes, there are also long-pull and short-pull mechanical disk brake calipers; this was necessary for the industry's transmission from rim brakes - with V-brakes having become the most ubiquitous type of rim brake outside of road bikes - and the exploding popularity of entry-level (with no shortage of premium) mechanical disk brakes. What needed to be matched is the amount of pull at the lever (long vs. short) with that of brake being used (long-pull or short-pull, regardless of it being a rim V-brake or a mechanical disk brake caliper.) That's why there are "long-pull" levers (in that the blade's pivot is farther away towards the handlebar from the cable barrel anchor) and "short-pull" levers (the two are much closer to each other.) SRAM's/Avid's FR-5 brake levers - and the kajillion clones/knockoffs simplified things for both manufacturers and consumers by being "medium-pull" brake levers that worked well (whether equally so or not is up for debate) with both long- and short-pull brakes - no matter what type they are.
I'm not confused, and I agree with most of what you're saying (although again, some of this is semantics). It's about the amount of pull at the lever, and matching that to the brakes. It's the cable pull and mechanical advantage (leverage). Something like Travel Agents simply change the cable pull, and in so doing change the mechanical advantage to be compatible with long-pull brakes.

What I was clarifying is that it has nothing to do with the physical orientation, horizontal or vertical, of the cable with regard to the brakes. It also has nothing to do with the brake performance being "linear" over the life of the brake pads, but someone else picked up on that one.

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Old 11-21-22, 03:40 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
It's about the amount of pull at the lever, and matching that to the brakes. It's the cable pull and mechanical advantage (leverage).

What I was clarifying is that it has nothing to do with the physical orientation, horizontal or vertical, of the cable with regard to the brakes.
No. How much or how little cable the lever pulls is not the reason why V-brakes are called "linear pull" brakes. It's the physical orientation of the cable down at the actual V-brake arms. The only thing you clarified is just how deeply confused you are about the icon of simplicity that is the good old V-brake.
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Old 11-21-22, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Of the many reasons that I own and (almost) daily-drive a 1982 Peugeot 504 Familiale (that's a three-row wagon for you Yanks,) two stand out as pertinent to this discussion: breaker points and a Solex synchronous double-barrel carburetor:

Other reasons include the magical ride thanks to its long-travel suspension with rebuildable Macpherson struts up front and quad coil springs keeping the rear off of the solid live axle at the back; fantastic handling thanks to the non-assisted rack-and-pinion steering; the snickety-snick manual (oh, I'm sorry - STICK SHIFT!) transmission that originally was a four-speed and which I had converted to five-speed: the rugged, completely sealed driveline; easily accessible water pump... And it's air-conditioned!

And for being a great conversation starter everywhere I take it!

In July I took it on a three-week, 4,000 mile round trip to Jordan and, apart from a minor issue with the headlights that occurred at the break of dawn on the second day of the trip - and the fact that the speedometer never worked since the five-speed conversion - it was absolutely reliable:

It was reliable throughout the 450,000 miles that the previous - and first - owner had put on it, and it's still reliable now.

So you might want to back off with the patronizing punditry and be a little more open-minded to different people and different strokes.
I see you are in Saudi Arabia which means you may have never suffered with the garbage that came out of Detroit, USA in the 1970's and 80's - the reason our auto industry almost collapsed........twice. Not to mention rust is probably non-existent where you are. In the Northeast USA, that car would be a pile of brown powder by now.
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Old 11-21-22, 03:42 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
All the more reason to eliminate them altogether.
I'm not against simpler cars but I don't want a carburetor or contact point ignition. Computers have given us cars with over 400 horsepower and better than 20mpg, among other things. In the US we have fuel economy and emission standards which could not be met without modern tech.

Also, many people want Bluetooth and push button starting and built in gps, rain sense wipers, along with traction and yaw control, etc. We have cars with 30 computers on board and that isn't going away.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
No. How much or how little cable the lever pulls is not the reason why V-brakes are called "linear pull" brakes. It's the physical orientation of the cable down at the actual V-brake arms. The only thing you clarified is just how deeply confused you are about the icon of simplicity that is the good old V-brake.
Well, go ahead and try your V-brakes or MTB mechanical disk brakes with short-pull levers, and tell us how well it works. (Hint: not very well.) Both kinds of brakes require the same amount of cable pull and thus the same brake levers can be used, regardless of which direction the cable is oriented or how it attaches to the brakes. You can use "linear pull" levers with mechanical disk brakes, which have a different setup with regard to the orientation of the cable.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
I see you are in Saudi Arabia which means you may have never suffered with the garbage that came out of Detroit, USA in the 1970's and 80's
Jeez, what makes you think that?

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Old 11-21-22, 04:07 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Jeez, what makes you think that?

That's a GMC Typhoon. Came out in 1992. Fun car to drive. Clint Eastwood had 5 of them at one point, I worked on some of his.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:09 PM
  #120  
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From Wiki: And since the arms move the same distance that the cable moves with regard to its housing, the design is also called "linear-pull"
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Old 11-21-22, 04:13 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
Both kinds of brakes require the same amount of cable pull
Incorrect. Obviously, your confusion persists.

Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
You can use "linear pull" levers with mechanical disk brakes, which have a different setup with regard to the orientation of the cable.
See pertinent point made in earlier post.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:16 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
That's a GMC Typhoon. Came out in 1992. Fun car to drive. Clint Eastwood had 5 of them at one point, I worked on some of his.
And where were you when I could've used your expertise to fix this piece crap that I owned for 11 months and drove for three days, and that bankrupted me and nearly destroyed my marriage?
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Old 11-21-22, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
Jeez, what makes you think that?

Originally Posted by big john View Post
That's a GMC Typhoon. Came out in 1992. Fun car to drive. Clint Eastwood had 5 of them at one point, I worked on some of his.
Last time I checked, 1992 wasn't in the 1970's and 80's.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:18 PM
  #124  
cxwrench
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I've always thought it was the orientation of the cable across the top of the brake arms, but I've been been working in shops since a little before V-brakes actually came out. I guess it would be more correct to say lateral pull...or horizontal pull. I do remember being told to only use V brake compatible levers at the time because they had greater cable pull but less leverage as the brake arms themselves were longer and thus more powerful/had greater leverage.

Last edited by cxwrench; 11-21-22 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:23 PM
  #125  
big john
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir View Post
And where were you when I could've used your expertise to fix this piece crap that I owned for 11 months and drove for three days, and that bankrupted me and nearly destroyed my marriage?
Sorry I couldn't be there but I was in the Los Angeles area.
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