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V-brakes vs. Center-pull brakes

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V-brakes vs. Center-pull brakes

Old 11-21-22, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
“Linear” brakes are called that because the cable pulls linearly across the brake arms instead of vertically
Originally Posted by sjanzeir
the reason why V-brakes are called "linear pull" brakes [is] the physical orientation of the cable down at the actual V-brake arms.
Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
it has nothing to do with the physical orientation of the cable with regard to the the brakes


Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
It has to do with how much cable the lever pulls
Originally Posted by cyccommute
they pull more cable but that has nothing to do with why they are call “linear pull”


The mystery continues.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
I've always thought it was the orientation of the cable across the top of the brake arms, but I've been been working in shops since a little before V-brakes actually came out. I guess it would be more correct to say lateral pull...or horizontal pull. I do remember being told to only use V brake compatible levers at the time because they had greater cable pull but less leverage as the brake arms themselves were longer and thus more powerful/had greater leverage.
I was never a bike shop guy, but was racing and working on my own bike since before v-brakes. My understanding was always that "linear" related to cable pull ratio of the lever and brake system, not the direction of the cable related to the brake arm. I'm just a guy on the internet, though.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
I've always thought it was the orientation of the cable across the top of the brake arms, but I've been been working in shops since a little before V-brakes actually came out. I guess it would be more correct to say lateral pull...or horizontal pull. I do remember being told to only use V brake compatible levers at the time because they had greater cable pull but less leverage as the brake arms themselves were longer and thus more powerful/had greater leverage.
Why not just call them what they are - V-brakes. That can't be anywhere near as blasphemous as BRIFTER.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
Last time I checked, 1992 wasn't in the 1970's and 80's.
Oh, well, now that we're being technical, the badge may have been slapped onto the tailgate in 1992, but the rest of Piece Of *beep* Chassis No. 573 - and the idea that turbocharging a V6 is a substitute for V8 displacement - are deeply rooted in the 1970s and 1980s, wouldn't you say?
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Old 11-21-22, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
And how's that working out for ya?

And neither is the 504. I've had multiple vehicles that I bought new that had some or all of these things, and every single one of them proved to be an expensive out-of-warranty headache. And don't even get me started on the whole oversized-alloy-wheel, low-profile-tire thing!
I lived here during the 1960s with the terrible air pollution of that era. It's sooo much better now even though there are millions more cars on the road.

I can't even imagine how much worse the pollution and fuel prices would be if there were no controls. Having measured the tailpipe emissions of thousands of cars since 1983 I can see the difference modern tech makes.

I agree that the factories could build simple, economical cars but that's not where the money is.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
Oh, well, now that we're being technical, the badge may have been slapped onto the tailgate in 1992, but the rest of Piece Of *beep* Chassis No. 573 - and the idea that turbocharging a V6 is a substitute for V8 displacement - are deeply rooted in the 1970s and 1980s, wouldn't you say?
My point was that American cars became much more reliable post 1990. In the 1970's, the American car that went over 100,000 miles was the exception unless you gave it extreme TLC. Now it's pretty much expected. Granted there were exceptions like the Dodge Dart. Most American cars of that era were a joke. Is it any wonder Japanese imports almost made the US auto industry collapse in the late 1970's.
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Old 11-21-22, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
Oh, well, now that we're being technical, the badge may have been slapped onto the tailgate in 1992, but the rest of Piece Of *beep* Chassis No. 573 - and the idea that turbocharging a V6 is a substitute for V8 displacement - are deeply rooted in the 1970s and 1980s, wouldn't you say?
Actually that body came out in 1982. I had a 1986 with the crappy 2.8 engine and I drove that thing for 18 years.

Turbochargers are more common now than ever before. It's a way to get more power from a smaller engine. Chevy has released a full sized pick-up with a 4 cylinder turbo engine.
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Old 11-21-22, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
My point was that American cars became much more reliable post 1990. In the 1970's, the American car that went over 100,000 miles was the exception unless you gave it extreme TLC. Now it's pretty much expected. Granted there were exceptions like the Dodge Dart. Most American cars of that era were a joke. Is it any wonder Japanese imports almost made the US auto industry collapse in the late 1970's.
I'm actually talking to a local guy about his abandoned 1975 Valiant with a slant six and three on the tree, but he's dragging his feet. I've also talking to another guy about his elderly father's one-owner, 1984 G-body Bonneville sedan; I'm not into automatic transmissions, but for a (seemingly) clean car for his asking price, I'm willing to make an exception! I tried to have a conversation with this other dude about his 1985 G-body Regal Four-door sedan, but he's being a total jerk - he could've already sold it for all I know. Another guy with a 1984 Impala isn't being awfully communicative, either. There's this other guy who's selling a 1985 Nissan Cedric, which is American in every way except for the fact that it was built by Nissan and runs a five-speed manual (stick shift ) but his asking price is too high and I'm not a fan of V6s or of belt-driven valvetrains.
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Old 11-21-22, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
Actually that body came out in 1982. I had a 1986 with the crappy 2.8 engine and I drove that thing for 18 years.

Turbochargers are more common now than ever before. It's a way to get more power from a smaller engine. Chevy has released a full sized pick-up with a 4 cylinder turbo engine.
When Albert Finney bought the S-10 for Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich, I remember thinking, "oh, what a jerk! He could've bought her a Corolla! She probably would've been better off keeping her Pony."
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Old 11-21-22, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
When Albert Finney bought the S-10 for Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich, I remember thinking, "oh, what a jerk! He could've bought her a Corolla! She probably would've been better off keeping her Pony."
It was a bit of a strange choice but in the context of the movie it worked. The 4 door S-10s all had the 4.3, one of 2 versions. Great engines.

After she got the bonus check she could buy any car she wanted.

If you ever saw "Absolute Power" Clint the jewel thief escapes in the dark green Typhoon early on. That's one of the ones I serviced but I never met him.
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Old 11-21-22, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
Actually that body came out in 1982. I had a 1986 with the crappy 2.8 engine and I drove that thing for 18 years.

Turbochargers are more common now than ever before. It's a way to get more power from a smaller engine. Chevy has released a full sized pick-up with a 4 cylinder turbo engine.
Did it have linear pull brakes?
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Old 11-21-22, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Did it have linear pull brakes?
It had two of those newfangled "disk" brakes...
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Old 11-21-22, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I was never a bike shop guy, but was racing and working on my own bike since before v-brakes. My understanding was always that "linear" related to cable pull ratio of the lever and brake system, not the direction of the cable related to the brake arm. I'm just a guy on the internet, though.
Bingo. You are correct. That was my point from the very beginning although you've stated it more clearly and concisely.
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Old 11-21-22, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Did it have linear pull brakes?
Is there any other way?
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Old 11-21-22, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
It had two of those newfangled "disk" brakes...
It's a fad. Don't buy into the hype from Big Auto.
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Old 11-21-22, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
Bingo. You are correct. That was my point from the very beginning although you've stated it more clearly and concisely.
I'm not sure that I'm correct. I'm only stating my understanding of the term based on the information I recall from many years ago. The accuracy of my memory is highly suspect.
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Old 11-21-22, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by walterbyrd
Thank you. I will try adjusting them again. I had to monkey with them quite a bit to get them to work at all. Once I got them to basically work, I didn't want risk having them set so that one pad constantly rubs against the rim after braking.

But this is what I mean. Back when I had center-pull brakes, I never this sort of problem.
Unless I missed it, how did this all turn out? Were you able to get them at least serviceable?

One thing that got skipped in this entire thread is discussion of the venerable center-pull caliper brake that I think you are talking about. They were used on a lot of bikes back in the 60s and 70s and beyond. That was one of the upgrades from a Schwinn Varsity to a Continental, for example. You're right - they are pretty much "set-it-and-forget-it".

They still make them and some people still use them. Here's one example.
Dia-Compe DC-750 Center-Pull Front Brake, 62-78mm, Silver

And here's an interesting article at ReneHerse.
Why I Choose Centerpull Brakes
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Old 11-21-22, 08:31 PM
  #143  
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Noticed zero braking difference on my Schwinn Varisty and Continental. Compared to ‘modern” brakes, they both equally sucked - especially with the little level brake levers that ran parallel to the upper bar.
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Old 11-23-22, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
Bingo. You are correct. That was my point from the very beginning although you've stated it more clearly and concisely.
I always thought that it was because the cable pulled directly across between the two arms a predictable amount, rather than pulling the straddle cable up and trusting that to move the arms together a distance which varied based on the length of the straddle cable.
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Old 11-23-22, 01:15 PM
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> Were you able to get them at least serviceable?

Yes. Thank you. I read the article about "why I choose centerpull brakes." The author makes some good points, about a few different kinds of brakes.
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Old 11-25-22, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
And where were you when I could've used your expertise to fix this piece crap that I owned for 11 months and drove for three days, and that bankrupted me and nearly destroyed my marriage?
A 90s gm suv; one of the most simplest vehicles to fix? Really?
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Old 11-25-22, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Jax Rhapsody
A 90s gm suv; one of the most simplest vehicles to fix? Really?
A turbocharged 285hp V6 with an air-to-water intercooler and permanent AWD... yeah, what could possibly be complicated about that?
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Old 11-25-22, 08:28 AM
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cyccommute Rolla sjanzeir Jeff Neese

'Direct pull' brakes are absolutely defined by the way the cable is oriented across the top of the arms. These brakes fix a design flaw with centre-pull cantilever brakes - that the more you pull on the brake, the higher the yoke goes and therefore the less leverage the brake has working to stop the bike. 'Direct pull' brakes have the cable pulling the arms straight together, so doubling force at the lever will approximately double the force at the brake, while doubling the force at the lever for a centre-pull cantilever makes some increase less than double the force at the brake. This is not to say cantis are necessarily bad brakes - I have had many great rides on canti equipped bikes on rough terrain, but decent quality V brakes (direct pull) were an immediate upgrade when they came out.

And how do we know that it is the cable orientation and not the amount of cable pull that defines linear-pull brakes? Because there are 'short pull' linear pull brakes for touring/Cx/bmx bikes that use the same short-pull levers as you would use with road calipers or cantilever brakes. There are also cable-actuated disc brakes that work with short pull levers. The difference between the brakes is the way the cable actuates the arms, not the amount of cable puleld.

As for the... *ahem* 'people' splitting hairs on whether what is called a 'cantilever' brake can be described as a 'centre pull' canrtilever brake, please, . . . . . The 'road centre pull' brakes like the Weinmanns pictured above haven't been included on a new bike in decades, so in a discussion of 'cantis vs Vs', it is absolutely appropriate to differentiate by calling 'cantis' 'centre pull', because that's literally what they are, just like how 'direct pull' brakes are literally also a type of 'cantilever' brakes. Kind of like how what used to be called 'clipless' pedals are now regularly, and not incorrectly, called 'clip in' or 'clip' pedals - the toe clip and cleat pedals that 'clipless' pedals replaced aren't really a thing anymore, so correcting people on the distinction only indicates who in the discussion thinks too highly of their own intelligence.

Last edited by BillyD; 11-25-22 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-25-22, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ClydeClydeson
cyccommute Rolla sjanzeir Jeff Neese

'Direct pull' brakes have the cable pulling the arms straight together, so doubling force at the lever will approximately double the force at the brake, while doubling the force at the lever for a centre-pull cantilever makes some increase less than double the force at the brake. This is not to say cantis are necessarily bad brakes - I have had many great rides on canti equipped bikes on rough terrain, but decent quality V brakes (direct pull) were an immediate upgrade when they came out.

And how do we know that it is the cable orientation and not the amount of cable pull that defines linear-pull brakes? Because there are 'short pull' linear pull brakes for touring/Cx/bmx bikes that use the same short-pull levers as you would use with road calipers or cantilever brakes. There are also cable-actuated disc brakes that work with short pull levers. The difference between the brakes is the way the cable actuates the arms, not the amount of cable pulled.
Thank you! This is exactly what I was saying all along!
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Old 11-25-22, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
Thank you! This is exactly what I was saying all along!
Ummm... no, it isn't.

Originally Posted by sjanzeir
When Albert Finney bought the S-10 for Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich, I remember thinking, "oh, what a jerk! He could've bought her a Corolla! She probably would've been better off keeping her Pony."
You were wrong all along-

It was not a Pony, it was an Excel.
Pony was an unbelievably crappily made rear wheel drive car that was never sold in the US.
Excel was an unbelievably crappily made front wheel drive car that WAS sold in the US.

Maybe some of the other stuff you said was correct, but I can't be bothered to look if you don't have the respect for the history of Hyundai in the USA that I think is appropriate.
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