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Recessed Front Dropouts: Historic, Folkloric.

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Recessed Front Dropouts: Historic, Folkloric.

Old 11-25-22, 02:43 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Many, many experienced cyclist simply grind or file them off.
....and many many thousands of experienced cyclists also leave those tabs on because it`s a non-issue.
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Old 11-25-22, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Yeah, probably 5 seconds of extra twisting to both install and 5 seconds to remove.
As for what is the rush, its clearly just convenience. If you dont want to do this, thats cool. That doesnt mean its 'very dumb'.
You constantly bash anything that you dont do as a cyclist.
Oh, that's not limited to cycling.
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Old 11-25-22, 03:14 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
....and many many thousands of experienced cyclists also leave those tabs on because it`s a non-issue.
Sure, but no one has stated that it is stupid to leave them on. You seem compelled to label anyone that decides to remove them as stupid.
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Old 11-25-22, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Removing a safety feature just to save few seconds doesn't sound like a smart thing to do.
Lawyer lips efficacy as a “safety feature” is questionable. I’ll grant that they serve a purpose when it comes to using disc brakes and quick release, but for rim brake equipped bikes they encourage improper use of the quick release. I’ve seen many, many, many quick release skewers that have been screwed on like a wing nut because people don’t understand how the quick release works. I’ve also seen an equal number (or more) that are improperly tightened even when they aren’t used like a wing nut. People…including engineers and lawyers…don’t understand that a quick release with a cam won’t loosen if properly tightened. It’s not a matter of the quick release being poorly designed but a problem of them being improperly used.
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Old 11-25-22, 04:54 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Removing a safety feature just to save few seconds doesn't sound like a smart thing to do.
A safety feature? Please. They’re annoying. Filing them off makes removing the front wheel less annoying. There is simply no need for them unless you have no clue how to properly operate a quick release.

Do you still have wheel and pedal reflectors? How about an orange flag attached to your rear axle?
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Old 11-25-22, 08:03 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
A safety feature? Please. They’re annoying. Filing them off makes removing the front wheel less annoying. There is simply no need for them unless you have no clue how to properly operate a quick release.

Do you still have wheel and pedal reflectors? How about an orange flag attached to your rear axle?
wait, you mean that's not cool?
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Old 11-25-22, 08:47 PM
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As I remember it, sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s a fellow's front wheel came off. He sued the bike manufacturer, claiming the quick release 'vibrated loose' and the design was inherently unsafe. The prosecution called John Howard, US Olympic cyclist, RAAM competitor, land speed record holder, US National Roadracing Champion and Ironman champion as an expert (paid) witness. He testified that bicycle quick releases 'vibrate loose all the time'. The defendant subsequently lost and had to pay significant damages. Cycle companies operating in the US decided adding a secondary retention feature was cheap compared to being sued.

Interestingly, Mr. Howard's "The Cyclist's Companion" (1984) does not mention quick releases vibrating loose.
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Old 11-25-22, 09:48 PM
  #33  
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's soooo annoying to have to loosen the QR 3-4 turns to get that wheel off. I remove the wheels of my road bikes almost every time I use them. It's novver bothered me one iota. I couldn't care less if someone files them off. But MHO is that it's silly to be "annoyed" by them. They're a non factor.
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Old 11-25-22, 11:00 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's soooo annoying to have to loosen the QR 3-4 turns to get that wheel off.
The (minor) inconvenience isn't the need to loosen the QR 3-4 turns when you remove a wheel, it's the need to turn it back just the right amount so that the QR closes properly. It's easy to just file the tabs off and never think about it again. Not much different than tossing away valve caps ...
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Old 11-26-22, 12:11 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The (minor) inconvenience isn't the need to loosen the QR 3-4 turns when you remove a wheel, it's the need to turn it back just the right amount so that the QR closes properly. It's easy to just file the tabs off and never think about it again. Not much different than tossing away valve caps ...
It's an insignificant skill or hassle for me to do it right. I do it a lot, for many, many years. I have an older bike without the tabs and the difference between the two types of fork dropouts is insignificant in putting the wheel on and off. 2 seconds for the un-tabbed wheel, 4 seconds for the tabbed wheel. Am I worried about the older, tab-less front wheel falling off due to operator error (on my part)? Absolutely not. So, while I really don't care if you or anyone else does it, but I have no reason not to file them off except there's no reason to, you can't convince me there is!
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Old 11-26-22, 12:14 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
So, while I really don't care if you or anyone else does it, but I have no reason not to file them off except there's no reason to, you can't convince me there is!
No one was trying to convince you to file off your tabs.
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Old 11-26-22, 12:23 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
No one was trying to convince you to file off your tabs.
I'm sorry, I was joking about that. I know you weren't. I thought the grouchy old man emoji would tell that. My apologies for being way to grouchy about this. I should (OK I will) insert the classic video clip link here:

For posterity, the way I quickly get the QR right is: I clamp the QR and tighten the other side ("nut") finger tight. I release the QR, tighten the "nut" another whatever - 1/4 turn maybe? Then re-clamp the QR tight. It's not nearly as difficult to get right as the "QR" type of thru axle I had on my gravel bike. That indeed warranted a change so I replaced it with a regular thru axle bolt.
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Old 11-26-22, 08:23 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
As I remember it, sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s a fellow's front wheel came off. He sued the bike manufacturer, claiming the quick release 'vibrated loose' and the design was inherently unsafe. The prosecution called John Howard, US Olympic cyclist, RAAM competitor, land speed record holder, US National Roadracing Champion and Ironman champion as an expert (paid) witness. He testified that bicycle quick releases 'vibrate loose all the time'. The defendant subsequently lost and had to pay significant damages.
The end nuts on quick release skewers have nylon inserts (aka "Nyloc") to prevent such loosening. This type of fastener is used on bolts where loosening could have catastrophic consequences, e.g. aircraft, and are considered to be very reliable. That said, repeated loosening and tightening of the nut erodes the nylon insert, reducing its effectiveness; in aircraft, they are considered to be single-use fasteners and are replaced with new ones when the equipment secured by the bolt is serviced. With a lipless dropout, the nut position on the skewer only needs to be set once, when the wheel is initially installed. Subsequent wheel removals only require a flip of the lever to release the wheel, and a flip of the lever to re-secure it; no screwing or unscrewing of the nut is needed. But the repeated screwing and unscrewing of the nut to clear a "lawyer lip" damages the nylon insert, making the lip an important safety feature.

N.B. older quick releases may not use a nylon insert, instead using a D-ring to secure threaded inserts. Tightening the quick release cam allows these inserts to rotate slightly with skewer tension, increasing the clamping force on the threads and preventing vibrational loosening in a manner analogous to that of the modern nylon insert.

Last edited by JohnDThompson; 11-26-22 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 11-26-22, 09:42 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's soooo annoying to have to loosen the QR 3-4 turns to get that wheel off.
Effectively negating the “quick release” function entirely.
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Old 11-26-22, 10:07 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
It's an insignificant skill or hassle for me to do it right. I do it a lot, for many, many years. I have an older bike without the tabs and the difference between the two types of fork dropouts is insignificant in putting the wheel on and off. 2 seconds for the un-tabbed wheel, 4 seconds for the tabbed wheel. Am I worried about the older, tab-less front wheel falling off due to operator error (on my part)? Absolutely not. So, while I really don't care if you or anyone else does it, but I have no reason not to file them off except there's no reason to, you can't convince me there is!
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t file off lawyer lips even though I hate them with a burning passion. Lawyer lips are put on bikes because of a failure to understand how they work and due to testimony by an “expert” witness who wasn’t an expert at all. At the risk of being flamed here’s a quote from John Forester on the lawyer lip issue

​​​​​​​Under those revisions, bicycles equipped with cam-lock quick release mechanisms did not need auxiliary front wheel retention devices. Therefore, they were not so equipped. QRs had been used only on expensive bicycles; but they soon became offered on cheaper bicycles bought by the general public, who did not know how to use them. There were cases of front wheel disconnection. John Howard, a racer whose leg power exceeded his brain power, testified as an expert that QRs came loose, and therefore bicycles with QRs ought to have auxiliary retention devices, just as did bicycles with nutted axles.

Howard was wrong. QRs are made so that the use of the cam to grip the fork ends goes through a point of maximum tightness before completing the cam movement. Therefore, a QR that is hypothetically loosening itself has to get tighter still before becoming able to loosen itself. Therefore, it cannot do that of itself; it can be loosened only by use of the cam lever. I testified once that the instructions for using the QR, required by the CPSC for all the equipment on each particular bicycle, were defective, so that the user could think he had operated it properly but had not done so. I testified in another case about how a QR, once properly installed, could not come loose of itself.
Basically, they are unnecessary and encourage people to use the quick release improperly. I can’t count the number of times that I’ve had to explain that the nut on a rear quick release doesn’t need to be unscrewed.

And, again, there is the proviso that lawyer lips are necessary for disc brake equipped wheels. The force of braking can be enough to eject the front wheel.
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Old 11-26-22, 10:25 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
For posterity, the way I quickly get the QR right is: I clamp the QR and tighten the other side ("nut") finger tight. I release the QR, tighten the "nut" another whatever - 1/4 turn maybe? Then re-clamp the QR tight. It's not nearly as difficult to get right as the "QR" type of thru axle I had on my gravel bike. That indeed warranted a change so I replaced it with a regular thru axle bolt.
My solution to the problem was the 1Up Quick Nut. Very clever. There’s a set screw in the nut that is set to the depth when the skewer is tightened. Once loose, the nut is unscrewed and then stops at the proper depth when screwed back in.

Unfortunately, 1Up doesn’t make them anymore
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Old 11-26-22, 10:31 AM
  #42  
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Why would anyone ever tighten their front QR with the lever in that position??
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Old 11-26-22, 10:43 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Why would anyone ever tighten their front QR with the lever in that position??
It was temporary. I was working on centering the brakes. The lever wasn’t left in that position.

That said, it wouldn’t matter any way. It’s a myth that the quick release can be opened by hooking it on something. Properly tighten, the bike would crash if the quick release were hooked on something before it would “pop” open.
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Old 11-26-22, 10:45 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
It was temporary. I was working on centering the brakes. The lever wasn’t left in that position.

That said, it wouldn’t matter any way. It’s a myth that the quick release can be opened by hooking it on something. Properly tighten, the bike would crash if the quick release were hooked on something before it would “pop” open.
It just looks stupid. I wouldn’t close it in that position even if I was just working on it.
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Old 11-26-22, 11:31 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
It just looks stupid. I wouldn’t close it in that position even if I was just working on it.
Your OCD is showing and you are putting emPHASis on the wrong sylLABLE. I might leave it there in the future
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Old 11-26-22, 11:49 AM
  #46  
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The two most frustrating issues for me with the tabs was when I was putting the bikes on a roof rack and later when I had a station wagon and had to remove the front wheel to store the bike and again when I had finished riding to put the bike back in. It was just a hassle compared to the other bikes which were fast an easy. When one is constantly taking the wheels on an off, compared to just keeping your bike in the garage and riding, it does become a PITA.
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Old 11-26-22, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Your OCD is showing and you are putting emPHASis on the wrong sylLABLE. I might leave it there in the future
Perhaps. Doesn’t change the fact that it looks stupid.
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Old 11-26-22, 01:15 PM
  #48  
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"Stupid" sure gets thrown around a lot on this forum.
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Old 11-26-22, 01:21 PM
  #49  
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If the shoe fits…
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Old 11-26-22, 05:09 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Perhaps. Doesn’t change the fact that it looks stupid.
…to you! Doesn’t matter to me. And, yet again, you are missing the point. It’s not about where the skewer lever is. It’s about the 1Up nut.
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