Worth upgrading from older high end Jamis to newer tech?
12-20-22, 12:44 PM
#76
Clark W. Griswold
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I do have a bike with wider tires: 32mm Conti GP5000s. They ride like a farm tractor.
Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.
BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.
BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
If I need fast wheels I won't be on 23mm unless in a velodrome or really absolutely perfect roads paved by the finest experts using only the best materials and purely virgin, no cars. If I was on a velodrome I would probably run tubulars but on the road I would run open tubulars as I have and be quite a bit more comfortable at 28 or wider to a point. Obviously a really wide tire (like say a mountain bike or fat bike tire) is going to be slower but if you optimize your system for certain tires you will not be slower with a wider tire. You will feel more of the road with a skinnier tire and you will as you have translate that into speed because that is what we have done but aero is no longer narrow. Bikes have gotten wider tubes all around, heck the Hope Track bike designed with Lotus is really wide. If narrow stuff was to be faster we would be trying to build pencil thin bikes and stuff like that and maybe it would be fast in a wind tunnel with no rider maybe but probably not.
Jan Heine has done a lot of real world testing on wider tires and found that they are not slow. Here is one article he did but he has been doing this well before he started selling tires and other stuff. https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-...re-not-slower/
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12-20-22, 09:02 PM
#77
Sock Puppet
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I do have a bike with wider tires: 32mm Conti GP5000s. They ride like a farm tractor.
Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.
BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.
BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
12-20-22, 09:13 PM
#78
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Ahhh gotcha, you missed the end of the Cold War back in the early early 90s, the first, second and third worlds are over, granted some of those alliances and lack of, are still prevalent but not totally. Also I haven't personally ridden a farm tractor but have ridden 32mm Contis and they do not ride poorly or slowly.
12-21-22, 05:55 AM
#79
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The new bike would be an expensive downgrade.
- Discs would add 2 pounds to the bike, between the rotors, extra frame and fork reinforcements and the heavier wheels. Are you riding on steep downhills in the rain with racks and camping gear with arthritic hands? If not, then discs on the road are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
- You actually want internal cable routing? It kind of looks kewl, until you break a cable and spend 3 hours of misery to replace it, including taking the crankset and bottom bracket out.
- Wider tires (>25mm) are heavy, slow and less aero - a significant performance downgrade. If you are heavy and riding on gravel, maybe.
- Tubeless: are you getting many flats per year? If not, tubeless is a PITA. Mounting tires on tubeless-compatible rims is hell.
- Giant D-Fuse seatpost... I've got one of these on a disc-brake equipped TCX. I don't notice any difference over a standard carbon post, only that I had to pay some extortionist fee for the D-Fuse post and stupid proprietary stem.
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12-21-22, 12:35 PM
#80
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Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
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12-21-22, 02:00 PM
#81
Sunshine
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Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
I dont have 1x road or gravel drivetrains. I dont have 13sp or even 12sp drivetrains. My bikes have external cabling(well 2 road bikes have internal routed rear brake cables, but thats easy to work on and I built one of them). Only 1 of my many bikes is disc.
You dont have to go to the over the top extreme you did. This isnt some black or white binary decision where its either downtube 2x5 friction bikes from the 70s or electronic aero disc bikes from the current. There is a huge middle ground that you seem incapable of recognizing.
Just like you dont need to either be on 23mm tires or 2.2" mtb tires. There is a wide range between and you really struggle with reconizing that.
Not every bike had to be an MTB in 85- that didnt happen until later. There were a ton of road bikes produced and sold in the late 80s- triathlons and road racing were still helping to drive interest.
You mention common sense road bikes. You know what that looks like?- 73 deg frame angles, 430mm chainstay, 32mm tires on rim brake wheels. Its a bike that is fast, comfortable, fun, and versatile. There is no common sense in dying on the hill of 23mm tires.
12-21-22, 03:37 PM
#82
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Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
12-22-22, 06:51 AM
#83
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Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.
The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
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12-22-22, 02:27 PM
#84
Senior Member
Sigh... are we not done yet? Back to the original posting, which asks:
.
To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.
BTW, we're talking here about go-fast bikes for pavement. Not a touring bike, or gravel bike, or leaning by the door of the coffee shop bike, or a milk-crate carton bike for carrying home cans and bottles found by the roadside.
What is my go-fast bike?: a UCI-stickered full carbon road with Dura-Ace Di2. Tubulars with rim brakes. Bah Humbug.
.
"I have a 2011 Jamis Xenith Team carbon DA di2 with Reynolds carbon 44/66 wheels (rim brakes). My Jamis was top build over ten years ago. With technology changing, would the newer Defy be a noticeable upgrade?"
.To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.
BTW, we're talking here about go-fast bikes for pavement. Not a touring bike, or gravel bike, or leaning by the door of the coffee shop bike, or a milk-crate carton bike for carrying home cans and bottles found by the roadside.
What is my go-fast bike?: a UCI-stickered full carbon road with Dura-Ace Di2. Tubulars with rim brakes. Bah Humbug.
Last edited by Dave Mayer; 12-22-22 at 02:32 PM.
12-22-22, 02:37 PM
#85
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Sigh... are we not done yet? Back to the original posting, which asks:
.
To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.
.
"I have a 2011 Jamis Xenith Team carbon DA di2 with Reynolds carbon 44/66 wheels (rim brakes). My Jamis was top build over ten years ago. With technology changing, would the newer Defy be a noticeable upgrade?"
.To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.
