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Worth upgrading from older high end Jamis to newer tech?

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Worth upgrading from older high end Jamis to newer tech?

Old 12-20-22, 12:44 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I do have a bike with wider tires: 32mm Conti GP5000s. They ride like a farm tractor.

Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.

BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
Ahhh gotcha, you missed the end of the Cold War back in the early early 90s, the first, second and third worlds are over, granted some of those alliances and lack of, are still prevalent but not totally. Also I haven't personally ridden a farm tractor but have ridden 32mm Contis and they do not ride poorly or slowly. Though my 28mm Vittoria Corsa G+ tires do ride better as do my 30mm Challenge tires. However they are quite a bit more supple in the sidewalls so that is expected. Conti tires tend to be on the stiffer side though the GP5ks are much better than Gatorskins which I did used to run in narrower sizes back in the day. Stiffer tires are slower so that could be the issue.

If I need fast wheels I won't be on 23mm unless in a velodrome or really absolutely perfect roads paved by the finest experts using only the best materials and purely virgin, no cars. If I was on a velodrome I would probably run tubulars but on the road I would run open tubulars as I have and be quite a bit more comfortable at 28 or wider to a point. Obviously a really wide tire (like say a mountain bike or fat bike tire) is going to be slower but if you optimize your system for certain tires you will not be slower with a wider tire. You will feel more of the road with a skinnier tire and you will as you have translate that into speed because that is what we have done but aero is no longer narrow. Bikes have gotten wider tubes all around, heck the Hope Track bike designed with Lotus is really wide. If narrow stuff was to be faster we would be trying to build pencil thin bikes and stuff like that and maybe it would be fast in a wind tunnel with no rider maybe but probably not.

Jan Heine has done a lot of real world testing on wider tires and found that they are not slow. Here is one article he did but he has been doing this well before he started selling tires and other stuff. https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-...re-not-slower/
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Old 12-20-22, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I do have a bike with wider tires: 32mm Conti GP5000s. They ride like a farm tractor.

Look at the rolling resistance test results for these tires at different sizes - easy to Google. On non third-world pavement, at recommended inflation pressures, the 23s and 25s have the lowest losses (watts). Nevertheless, overall rolling resistance is trivial, with only a small number of watts between them. The biggest handicap of wider tires is the complementary wide heavy rims used on disc brake bikes. Plus the greater number of crossed spokes required to handle the extra forces discs place on wheels. You need fast wheels: then you'll be on 23mm carbon (rim brake) tubulars.

BTW: wide tires have to have more air resistance than narrow tires, as they have more frontal area.
I have ridden 23's, 25's and 28's. There was no perceived difference as far as speed, but the wider tires were definitely less jarring. I currently have 28's on both my road bikes and I will never go back to ultra skinny tires.
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Old 12-20-22, 09:13 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
Ahhh gotcha, you missed the end of the Cold War back in the early early 90s, the first, second and third worlds are over, granted some of those alliances and lack of, are still prevalent but not totally. Also I haven't personally ridden a farm tractor but have ridden 32mm Contis and they do not ride poorly or slowly.
Heck, I ride 42mm Panaracer slicks on my gravel bike. While it is a bit slower than either of my road bikes with the 28mm Vittoria Rubinos, it's not a tremendous difference. The 42mm Panaracer slicks roll nice.
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Old 12-21-22, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
The new bike would be an expensive downgrade.
  • Discs would add 2 pounds to the bike, between the rotors, extra frame and fork reinforcements and the heavier wheels. Are you riding on steep downhills in the rain with racks and camping gear with arthritic hands? If not, then discs on the road are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.
  • You actually want internal cable routing? It kind of looks kewl, until you break a cable and spend 3 hours of misery to replace it, including taking the crankset and bottom bracket out.
  • Wider tires (>25mm) are heavy, slow and less aero - a significant performance downgrade. If you are heavy and riding on gravel, maybe.
  • Tubeless: are you getting many flats per year? If not, tubeless is a PITA. Mounting tires on tubeless-compatible rims is hell.
  • Giant D-Fuse seatpost... I've got one of these on a disc-brake equipped TCX. I don't notice any difference over a standard carbon post, only that I had to pay some extortionist fee for the D-Fuse post and stupid proprietary stem.
Recommendation: find another rim-brake Jamis Team from about 10 years ago, except one size larger, and fitted with low-profile alu rims.
Worst justifications ever for not buying a bike less than 10 years old.
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Old 12-21-22, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Worst justifications ever for not buying a bike less than 10 years old.
Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.

Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.

The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
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Old 12-21-22, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.

Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.

The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
Wow, that is quite the rant. Just throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks.

I dont have 1x road or gravel drivetrains. I dont have 13sp or even 12sp drivetrains. My bikes have external cabling(well 2 road bikes have internal routed rear brake cables, but thats easy to work on and I built one of them). Only 1 of my many bikes is disc.

You dont have to go to the over the top extreme you did. This isnt some black or white binary decision where its either downtube 2x5 friction bikes from the 70s or electronic aero disc bikes from the current. There is a huge middle ground that you seem incapable of recognizing.
Just like you dont need to either be on 23mm tires or 2.2" mtb tires. There is a wide range between and you really struggle with reconizing that.

Not every bike had to be an MTB in 85- that didnt happen until later. There were a ton of road bikes produced and sold in the late 80s- triathlons and road racing were still helping to drive interest.
You mention common sense road bikes. You know what that looks like?- 73 deg frame angles, 430mm chainstay, 32mm tires on rim brake wheels. Its a bike that is fast, comfortable, fun, and versatile. There is no common sense in dying on the hill of 23mm tires.
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Old 12-21-22, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.

Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.

The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
Do you ride one of these?

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Old 12-22-22, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Sorry for not supporting the bike industry. Today I'm going to run out and buy a $10k road bike with a 13 x 1 drivetrain (complete with a trash-can sized cassette) hydraulic discs, a dropper post, suspension fork, and 42mm tires. Just so my pals can snicker away behind my back at the ride start, and drop me cold within the first 10k.

Oh, and the bike has to be aero with internal routing. Of course I won't be able to work on any of this myself, or buy a chain for less than $100 or a cassette for less than $200.

The bike industry is cyclical. In 1985, every bike had to be a mountain bike. For every surface for every rider on every ride. By 1990 you could not give away road bikes. By 2005, road bikes had come back with a vengeance, and you could not give away a hardtail MTB. I'm going to wait out this current cycle for a return to common sense road bikes. Just wait, in a few short years, marketers will reintroduce rim brakes as featuring huge integrated 622mm rotors, as the rims doubling as the braking surface! Light weight efficient solution. But at a big price premium.
You know it's perfectly okay to ride an older bike. But you don't have to try to justify it to anyone else with pointless rants like this^. It just makes you look bitter. Very bitter in this case! Oh well, merry xmas!
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Old 12-22-22, 02:27 PM
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Sigh... are we not done yet? Back to the original posting, which asks:
.
"I have a 2011 Jamis Xenith Team carbon DA di2 with Reynolds carbon 44/66 wheels (rim brakes). My Jamis was top build over ten years ago. With technology changing, would the newer Defy be a noticeable upgrade?"
.
To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.

BTW, we're talking here about go-fast bikes for pavement. Not a touring bike, or gravel bike, or leaning by the door of the coffee shop bike, or a milk-crate carton bike for carrying home cans and bottles found by the roadside.

What is my go-fast bike?: a UCI-stickered full carbon road with Dura-Ace Di2. Tubulars with rim brakes. Bah Humbug.

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Old 12-22-22, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Sigh... are we not done yet? Back to the original posting, which asks:
.
"I have a 2011 Jamis Xenith Team carbon DA di2 with Reynolds carbon 44/66 wheels (rim brakes). My Jamis was top build over ten years ago. With technology changing, would the newer Defy be a noticeable upgrade?"
.
To which the original poster, after listening to the debate here, became rightly convinced that 'upgrading' to a new $8,000 bike would actually be an expensive mistake. Yes, the newer bike would be performance downgrade. Mission accomplished.
We weren't disagreeing with you that this "upgrade" would be a mistake. We were disagreeing with you on most of the reasons you gave as to why it would be a mistake.
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Old 12-26-23, 08:27 AM
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Reviving this thread since I decided to sell my 2011 Jamix Team Dura Ace di2 and building a TCR Advanced.

Any feedback how much my Jamis is worth in the used market?
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Old 12-26-23, 10:10 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
Reviving this thread since I decided to sell my 2011 Jamix Team Dura Ace di2 and building a TCR Advanced.

Any feedback how much my Jamis is worth in the used market?
Ha, I forgot about this gem of a thread. Just read it again to get some laughs at the wildly strict views and strawman some people posted.
OP- my entertainment is not directed at anything you posted, to be clear.

Cool that you are trying out something new. And it isn't cool due to it being new and therfore better, but rather it's cool because this is a hobby and if trying something different is appealing, go for it! My current gravel frame has a carbon fork, thru axles, and hydraulic disc brakes because I wanted to try those things. I was fine without em, but it's a hobby and I like trying different stuff.
No harm in that, despite what some claim.


As for your Jamis bike's value, I do not intentionally keep up on current used market pricing for all types of road bikes, so take the following with that in mind...
- a 1st Gen di2 drivetrain is no appealing to me and it may not be appealing to a lot who would want di2. There have been multiple generations since yours, components wear/break, and that stuff isn't made any more. It might be viewed by some as a risk more than a benefit/feature. Just keep that in mind.
- the group is clearly nice- DA alone may make some people consider the bike, even with its age and older tech.
- the crankset being fsa is lame, at least to me, since I would want all DA if I am buying an older Gen di2 bike.
- the market for rim brake race bikes with multi Gen old di2 is, from what I've read, not the strongest. The peoe who would geek in this bike, dedicated roadies and experienced enthusiasts, likely want newer di2 and/or disc brakes.


If that were my bike I would add up the cost of parts and consider parting it out.
- sell the wheels for $400, if they are in good condition.
- sell the shifters, derailleurs, and chain, cassette, and crankset for $250.
- sell the frame, fork, headset, stem, brakes, and seatpost together for $600.

Keep the tires and bard if you want em, or sell/add in with the stuff above.

Maybe try to sell it as a complete bike for $1500 before splitting it up. Or maybe I am low on estimates?...I am just listi g prices that I personally would see and consider realistic, given the age, use, and generation.
And I could see parting it out in a few large chunks to be appealing since it may be a little more work, but it would go to people that have interest in some but not all of the bike.
- someone may want deep carbon clincher wheels for an older rim brake bike and new prices are too much to make it worth doing.
- someone may want to have the frameset and cockpit to hang spare parts they already own and use this as a trainer bike or backup bike.
- someone may have a partial 1st Gen DA di2 group and can use yours to complete it.
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Old 12-26-23, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Ha, I forgot about this gem of a thread. Just read it again to get some laughs at the wildly strict views and strawman some people posted.
OP- my entertainment is not directed at anything you posted, to be clear.

Cool that you are trying out something new. And it isn't cool due to it being new and therfore better, but rather it's cool because this is a hobby and if trying something different is appealing, go for it! My current gravel frame has a carbon fork, thru axles, and hydraulic disc brakes because I wanted to try those things. I was fine without em, but it's a hobby and I like trying different stuff.
No harm in that, despite what some claim.


As for your Jamis bike's value, I do not intentionally keep up on current used market pricing for all types of road bikes, so take the following with that in mind...
- a 1st Gen di2 drivetrain is no appealing to me and it may not be appealing to a lot who would want di2. There have been multiple generations since yours, components wear/break, and that stuff isn't made any more. It might be viewed by some as a risk more than a benefit/feature. Just keep that in mind.
- the group is clearly nice- DA alone may make some people consider the bike, even with its age and older tech.
- the crankset being fsa is lame, at least to me, since I would want all DA if I am buying an older Gen di2 bike.
- the market for rim brake race bikes with multi Gen old di2 is, from what I've read, not the strongest. The peoe who would geek in this bike, dedicated roadies and experienced enthusiasts, likely want newer di2 and/or disc brakes.


If that were my bike I would add up the cost of parts and consider parting it out.
- sell the wheels for $400, if they are in good condition.
- sell the shifters, derailleurs, and chain, cassette, and crankset for $250.
- sell the frame, fork, headset, stem, brakes, and seatpost together for $600.

Keep the tires and bard if you want em, or sell/add in with the stuff above.

Maybe try to sell it as a complete bike for $1500 before splitting it up. Or maybe I am low on estimates?...I am just listi g prices that I personally would see and consider realistic, given the age, use, and generation.
And I could see parting it out in a few large chunks to be appealing since it may be a little more work, but it would go to people that have interest in some but not all of the bike.
- someone may want deep carbon clincher wheels for an older rim brake bike and new prices are too much to make it worth doing.
- someone may want to have the frameset and cockpit to hang spare parts they already own and use this as a trainer bike or backup bike.
- someone may have a partial 1st Gen DA di2 group and can use yours to complete it.
That's excellent feedback.

As you mentioned I might aim for 1500-2000 as a whole bike. I think the condition and the DA di2 carries some weight despite being the first gen. I never missed one shift since buying it new.
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Old 12-26-23, 12:14 PM
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Did the bike come from the factory with Di2? It doesnít look well integrated with the external battery and the RD cable taped(?) to the chain stay.
The 1st gen Dura Ace Di2, if I understand correctly, is not cross-compatible with other Di2 groupsets and components, making it somewhat of an odd duck.
Itís winter time and the bike market has been very depressed this year. I would hold on to the bike for now and wait for next spring.
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Old 12-26-23, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Did the bike come from the factory with Di2? It doesnít look well integrated with the external battery and the RD cable taped(?) to the chain stay.
The 1st gen Dura Ace Di2, if I understand correctly, is not cross-compatible with other Di2 groupsets and components, making it somewhat of an odd duck.
Itís winter time and the bike market has been very depressed this year. I would hold on to the bike for now and wait for next spring.
Yes it came like that stock.
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Old 12-26-23, 02:16 PM
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Funny so much sturm und drang over proprietary seat posts. Lots of aero bikes have them nowadays ... nobody seems to be dying.

I am not personally in favor of proprietary parts, but ... if I got a Defy (which I considered carefully before getting my Fuji) I would simply buy two spare clamps and posts ... if they are indeed so fragile I would have them, and if I didn't need them i could sell them.

Mostly I put a seat post on a bike and that is the end of the story ... but anything can break (though it would take a very unusual crash to break the seat post and not do enough other damage that the seat post wouldn't be a secondary concern .... )

"What if I suddenly want to install a dropper post?" Well, what if I wake up tomorrow and I am a giraffe? How many people here have ridden a narrow-tire endurance bike (I think 35 is the widest it accepts, so Not a strong gravel contender) on the road for several years and then suddenly found a burning need to add a dropper post? Seems like more than a bit of a reach ...


And the biggest point you all missed ... N+ freaking 1 !!!!! if five years down the road you need a narrow-tire, dropper-post gravel bike ... BUY ONE!! What a great opportunity to buy a new bike ... after five years not an extravagance if you find your riding desires radically change.

OP is not looking for a serious gravel bike, and the Defy is not one ... in fact is is a sort of racy endurance bike, a little steeper and narrower than many more endurance-oriented endurance bikes. But .. OP is looking for a road bike, with a little cushier ride than his Jamis (which ultimately he decided to keep.) So the whole "dropper post" nonsense .... "What if I decide I need a mid-mount e-motor and helicopter rotors?"

We All understand what "proprietary parts" are and why they can bring benefits and drawbacks. Explaining that over and over is like one person trying to convince another than fire is hot while the other is trying to convince the former that ice is cold. Lots of words, no real information.

Shoot, look at how many bottom-bracket standards there are. If I used the logic in this thread, I wouldn't buy Any bike unless it had a threaded BSA BB.

The disc argument is the same ... everyone stating a personal preference but trying to "prove" it is better with "logic," which in this case is what they call the cherry-picked bits of information the post. Fact is there are lots of reasons to use discs besides rains and lots of reasons not to ... the only thing sensible item I note among all the arguing is the actual fact that even with special pads, CF rims offer the stopping power of steel rims when they are wet. Otherwise, there is a ton of pure personal preference on either side.

To me the point of the thread was that the OP decided that what he wanted was a comfortable road bike and he found his current ride offered him that. I think it is healthy to examine the stable and the market now and then .... at some point there likely will be something so much better for a particular rider and that specific rider's needs and desires, than a rider's old ride ... but that depends on the rider's needs and desires. A lot of folks can still fit on the racy steel 12-speeds they have been riding since they were teens, and they have nothing to gain by anything newer. others do find that a new bike brings a better experience ... even if the only "benefit" is psychological.
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Old 12-26-23, 04:14 PM
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OP: You already have very nice bicycle. The only thing I would consider changing (from the beginning) would be to have way less ads on the bikeÖ perhaps a stretched glue on film so I donít have to advertise after paying, rather than receiving money (a more customary mode).
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Old 12-27-23, 03:27 PM
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I think staying with the Jamis is a sensible idea ... of course, finances allowing, getting a new bike is always the BEST idea, but sometimes we slip a little ... no judgement. You can still buy a new bike later.

I figure any bike I have enjoyed for five or more years is worth very little, because most people are either looking for a new entry-level bike in the relative price range, or a super deal on some older bike ... and I am not rich enough to feel good about giving someone a super deal when I need the cash to buy my next great bike ..... Someone Might just fit my old bike, and like the specific upgrades I made, but likely not ....

if I had good gravel close by I would invest (possibly) in a gravel-specific frame with good tire clearance and all that ... otherwise, it is hard to imagine a road bike which would be So much better than what I have, that the price would seem justified. Like your Jamis, my bikes are unique and fit and suited to me ...

Let me string together a few years of several-thousand-mile riding (4K or more) and I will start talking myself into the big cash outlay ..... by then bikes will have 28-speed automatic gear boxes shifted by telepathy and micro-shocks and miniature heaters and AC units probably .....
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Old 12-27-23, 03:30 PM
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Reposting...

I did decide to sell the Jamis and get a TCR Advanced Disk,

As much as I liked the Jamis, over time I felt the harshness of the ride without being able to go wider than 26mm tires. Also I was super nervous on the descents with carbon rim brakes.
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Old 12-27-23, 04:38 PM
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How much did you get for the ancient, harsh, rickety death trap?

And isn't the TCR a pretty race-specific frame? Looks like it takes amx 28s .... (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tc...specifications)
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Old 12-27-23, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
How much did you get for the ancient, harsh, rickety death trap?

And isn't the TCR a pretty race-specific frame? Looks like it takes amx 28s .... (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tc...specifications)
I haven't sold the Jamis yet. But hoping to get around $1,500.

The TCR is kind of an all arounder with the right components. It can take up to 32mm which is plenty for a road bike.
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Old 12-27-23, 05:09 PM
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Hope you get what you feel you need all around .... sort of ..... I have never heard a bad thing about TCRs.
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Old 12-27-23, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
The Giant looks like a good choice especially now that it will take 32s and is discounted to $3500! Pics or....
I'm conflicted between 50mm or 65mm rims!
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Old 12-27-23, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Looks as if it comes with 36mm. Are they letting you swap?
I'm selling stock and getting aero ones.
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Old 01-01-24, 03:21 PM
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TCR's seem to be very popular.
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