indyfabz

Any of the players fall to the ground and writhe in pain for a few minutes then hop up like nothing happened?

pdlamb

Are you saying that bicycling is not exercise? Because ingesting electrolytes (especially salt) is the best/quickest/only way to relieve my cramps after a long, hot bike ride.

livedarklions

[QUOTE=pdlamb;22746047]Are you saying that bicycling is not exercise? Because ingesting electrolytes (especially salt) is the best/quickest/only way to relieve my cramps after a long, hot bike ride.[/QUOTE}


No, I'm saying that there's no good scientific evidence that electrolytes have anything to do with tit, your nonscientific anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

I'm saying that your claiming of that doesn't make it true. Do what you want, if it seems to be working, it's probably good enough reason to keep doing it because no one seems to have any scientifically supported idea what does or doesn't prevent cramping. Just don't "supplement" so much that you make yourself sick. What I was objecting to was the guy posting that he could attribute his lack of cramping to his diet and recommending it to other people.

pdlamb

[QUOTE=livedarklions;22746227]While I fully subscribe to "the plural of anecdotes is not data," any theory that's countered by a plethora (quantitative term there) of anecdotes really should have some way of explaining the counters.

livedarklions

[QUOTE=pdlamb;22746410]
And what about the plethora of people with counteranecdotes? I've certainly read enough people that say that electrolyte supplementation did nothing for them that the assertion you're making there doesn't drive to any probable conclusion.

And again, the statement I was objecting to was basically "I get electrolytes and carbohydrates in vinegar and salt potato chips, and I never cramp, so salt and vinegar chips prevent cramping." You obviously get a fair number of cramps, are you telling us you never eat food with electrolytes and carbs?
And is "I never cramp" even an anecdote? It's a statement of no anecdotes.

The data on cramping stinks because it's too random to systematically catch people in the actual throes of a cramp, which makes it damn near impossible to detect the actual triggers When they've actually done this and drawn blood, electrolytes aren't any different from non-cramping controls.

wolfchild

I never said it did...The most likely cause of cramps is muscle fatigue and there are many reasons for why muscles can become too fatigued and start cramping, one of those many reasons is not fueling properly..

livedarklions

So you think people are getting cramps because they don't eat food?! Cramping is associated with muscle fatigue, but the connection is not well understood. I'm pretty sure it is not a salt vinegar chip deficiency.

pdlamb

I agree with you, in part. As I said, I don't know of any definitive cause of cramping. But I also started in this thread by saying the best anyone can do is go down a list of possible causes and treatments until they find one that works for the. There are enough people whose cramps have been solved by salt that I think it's fair to say that, for some people, treating salt depletion solves their cramps. That's not an umbrella statement pertaining to all cramps. To say that electrolyte depletion does not cause cramps is demonstrably wrong for a substantial number of people. If you want to develop of Grand Unified Theory of cramping causes, go ahead. And good luck.

chaadster

Cures and causes of a condition needn’t be related at all.

livedarklions

Frankly, we pretty much agree, except that I don't accept your assertion about anyone's story proving that eating salt treated this kind of cramping. Cramps are so weird that there's really no way for an individual to know whether what you're doing is or isn't actually improving things, so go with whatever seems to be working as long as it doesn't hurt you. If you think eating a salty meal or whatever works, by all means, eat the meal. None of us can tell whether any effect is "real" or placebo, but I'm a big fan of good placebo effects.

My argument was never really with you, it was with the guy telling people that eating vinegar salt chips prevents cramps based on him never getting cramps. That's the grand unified theory guy, not me.


Just curious, have you tried the mustard eating thing?

wolfchild

Eating a bag pf chips or a plate of fries is way more satisfying during a ride or post ride than swallowing some pills or powders... As for placebo effect, you're most likely correct, but if it makes somebody feel better than why not ?

Lombard

That is what livedarklions has been saying. And sure, the salt replacement may make you feel better overall. So where are you going with this other than arguing for the sake of arguing?

wolfchild

My argument was against people who advocate taking pills and supplements instead of eating food. At least eating food will keep your body fueled, swallowing salt pills does absolutely nothing.

Paul Barnard

This is the easy button right here.

https://www.sportlegs.com/

livedarklions

All those years of riding fixed gears have really trained your backpedaling skills.

Just quit with the "this works for me so everyone should do it" advice and we'll all be fine. And yes, that's exactly what " Eating a small bag of salt and vinegar potato chips or a bag of doritos will supply your body with all the electrolytes and salt that your body needs. I've been doing that for years and years and never experienced a cramp in my life" is, so please stop lying about what you said.

livedarklions

Some people get sick when they eat significant amounts of food before and while riding. I, on the other hand, can ride 60 miles, destroy a lunch buffet, get back on the bike and ride another 60 miles (yes, I have done this without ill effect in fairly hot weather). I don't need supplements. I'm not going to tell someone they won't find a salt pill useful because I am not them.

wolfchild

That's exactly what you've been saying all throughout this entire thread. That extra salt is useless because we all know that cramps are not caused by lack of electrolytes.

wolfchild

Another snake oil.

livedarklions

Wrongo, I said an electrolyte deficiency was unlikely to be the cause of cramping, not that salt wasn't an important (probably the most important) electrolyte. There's lots of reasons you want to keep an adequate amount of salt in your bloodstream and cells, including that it actually aids water absorption. In extreme cases, hyponatremia can actually kill you--the brain can actually swell up and that's never good.

Only a fool wouldn't notice how much salt you're losing when you sweat profusely. Endurance athletes are especially prone to hyponatremia as the anti-diuretic hormone causes us to retain more water, thereby diluting the sodium we retain on board far more than normal.

I said I crave salty food when I ride in hot weather. That has nothing to do with cramping.

BTW, whenever we have one of these cramping threads, there's usually several competing versions of which electrolyte is the one that is needed to prevent cramping. I think you're far more likely to get yourself in trouble overdosing on magnesium and/or potassium than you are salt.

BTW, it's scientifically proven that salt vinegar potato chips are absolutely revolting.

BTW, I edited this to put in a third and fourth BTW.

wolfchild

So do I...The key word here is FOOD and not supplements.

Paul Barnard

I suspected as much before I tried it. I DO NOT cramp when I use it. Ever. I have spoken to a lot of endurance athletes who have used it and have said that it prevented the cramps they previously suffered too.

Classtime 

The last two times I had cramps while riding, I cured them with one of these. Cramps did not return for an additional 50 miles.

It worked for me. It was repeatable.

livedarklions

The key words are "I" and "me". I consider myself lucky that eating before and during a ride is not an issue for me, and don't question other people's use of supplements unless they're trying to push it on others. I know plenty of people who really can't take much food in when they exercise, and I don't try to tell them what to do because they have different needs than I do.

I definitely think supplements are oversold and underregulated in the U.S. and for the most part are producing very expensive urine, but I try not to comment negatively about someone else's usage of them as I don't know whether there's reasons they work better for them. For the most part, I despise the supplements industry for a lot of reasons including their lack of candor about what's actually in the stuff and the fact that they've lobbied politically so that legally they can get away with lots of absurd stuff like making health claims and disclaiming those exact claims in the same ad or on the bottle.

But salt is salt. I honestly don't think there's any difference between sprinkling it on food or taking it as a pill because we have been consuming the stuff in its purified form for many thousands of years. Getting other electrolytes from food vs. powders is a wholly different question as we generally don't "fortify" our food with these, and it's never normal for us to consume them in a purified form. My understanding is that there's a lot of doubt that the body can properly absorb them when they're ingested in a purified form rather than being extracted from our food by digestion.

livedarklions

Don't drink pickle juice, get pickled!

Carbonfiberboy 

Late to the party, I see. Up-thread, MoAlpha is correct, whatever he said. The idea that neither electrolytes or dehydration cause cramping is from a few studies of crampers in med tents near the end of marathons. No difference in either electrolyte levels or hydration levels was found between those who cramped and were in the med tent and healthy finishers of the races. IMO, that's a tell, and fits with my own experiences. I cramp from overexertion and that's that. My favorite was a 10' anaerobic climb, a bit of easier climbing, then an all-out hill sprint, then a descent followed my more climbing. That'd do it every time - until I got fit. Then nothing could make me cramp.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned is the possibility of cramping near the end of a long, at the limit type of ride, where the rider stopped taking in carbs way too early, smelling the barn. IOW riding at the limit of carb depletion. Mechanism unknown, only the effect.

The above story of holding an electrolyte tab in the mouth and stopping the cramp is another example of the pickle juice/mustard/Hot Shot effect - strong taste. Definitely works. I've given away a lot of pickle juice on rides. Another cramp breaker is Tums, but only the name brand Peppermint 500mg tabs. No other anti-acid works IME. They aren't as strong as pickle juice, but they work and are easy to carry, though now a bit hard to find.

You know it's taste if it relieves the cramp quickly, like in 2 minutes. If it takes 15-20 minutes, it's because the item has entered your bloodstream and relieves the cramp at the muscle site. So far, I've never experienced the latter unless it involved a dose of carbs, see paragraph 2.