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Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?

Old 01-10-23, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolla
The BF Motto: "If you get tired of arguing the topic, argue about the arguing." This is one absurd little sandbox.
My corollary to this apt motto: never argue with anyone or on any topic for more than two (preferably one) post. Anything beyond that makes me look like an immature, insecure loser with no pride or common sense. Make your point once (maybe twice) and move on. Feel sorry for those who argue back and forth endlessly. They have no life and find self worth by being "right" on the internet. I don't always adhere to this, but I try.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I had my opinion on hybrids and hybrid riders changed recently.
Do tell.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I believe Mr. Mayer would consider the need to be precise and consistent to be a flaw in the system.
Undoubtedly, but that need is hardly limited to disc brakes.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
I wonder if anyone changes their opinions in these long, drawn out threads? Let's get this one up to 700 posts to see!
It's not really a question of whether anyone changes their mind, it's whether one side of the debate accepts the reality that disc brakes are taking over the world of cycling. Some people don't seem to be able to take that step, and spend a lot of time shouting at the wind.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
Do tell.
I had a preconceived notion that hybrids were mediocre bikes for mediocre riders. I still think that makes up a high percentage of the buyers of that style of bike, but I learned that there are subsets of that bike style that are quite high-end, and do a great job serving some very serious cyclists in the way they prefer to ride.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I forgot a few more road disc-brake downsides, apart from them being heavy, fussy and unnecessary:
  • Extra space on the front hub required for the rotor attachments. This introduces dish on the front wheel and means a weaker build, all things being equal. Plus you need 2 different lengths of spokes for building front wheels - a minor PITA, but still a PITA.
  • Extra space on the rear wheel for the rotor attachments. This is not a trivial problem, as spoke bracing angles and rear hub flange spacing dimensions have gotten so extreme now, that rear wheels are simply weak and unstable. So we have to go with wider stay spacing, which means more heel strike. And wider crankset Q-factor, biomechanically inefficient.
  • Thru-axles. What an absurd PITA! With a QR, you flip the lever and the wheel drops out, just like Tullio Campagnolo meant it to happen. With discs, which tend to eject front wheels, you need a more robust and idiot-proof solution. So now we interminably twiddle away with our thru-axles, and forget them at the trailhead. Of course, there are 20 different thru-axle 'standards'. BTW: thru-axles are not axles, as they do not bear load. They are simply wheel retention devices for riders who cannot be trusted to use a proper QR. Lawyers win this round!
It's amazing that the entire industry didn't consult your knowledge before moving forward. Let me guess. Disc brakes are just a marketing scam to sell new bikes? Come on you may as well assert that too for a full house brake bingo.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
As someone with far more experience with discs that smd4…both setting them up and using them…as well as 50+ years of hand brake experience including using cantilevers on mountain bikes on mountain bike trails that people now tell me can only be ridden with disc brakes, I can confidently say that I’ve never experienced a situation where I couldn’t “precisely and accurately control the amount of clamping force” on any brake surface…rim or disc. As noted above, I have a bike that has disc front and linear back. I don’t use different clamping force depending on which brake I’m actuating. I don’t notice any difference in the force needed nor is one easier to use than the other. I have several cantilever equipped bikes as well and notice no difference in the ability to brake…even when doing so on fast downhills with a heavily loaded touring bike. The bikes…all of them independent of the braking system…stop where and when I need them to stop. It’s not something that I even think about while I ride.
I do believe you can ride your local trails with the bikes you own. I mean technically you can ride double black diamond DH trails with a gravel bike, but just really really slowly.

Now I don't know your speeds and it doesn't really matter. Speed is rider dependent more than gear. But I have personally noticed that even with a fatbike (which is my sole mountain bike) modern tech makes it easier to go faster. Modern geometry is far more forgiving than something with short wheelbase and steep headtube angle. Longer travel too. 700+mm bars definitely (I think I have 750mm...). And hydraulic brakes, which make actuation quicker and stronger so you can scrub speed in shorter intervals, ie. Between rocks or ice patches or other treacherous surfaces which'll launch the front or rear tire as soon as you try to brake on them.

Example time. It takes time to use force. I can wave a drumstick back and forth pretty quickly but waving a lead pipe is much slower. Same thing with brakes really. If it takes more force to actuate the brake, the actuation pulsing speed one can do is going to be slower than with a more powerful brake.

I've never been faster than with my current brake setup which is more powerful than most cyclists will ever experience. The Shigura setup with 203mm rotors I'm sporting is more powerful than trickstuff maxima. And it's still not on/off but rather more controllable than any brake I've used so far. The speed you can go from nothing to everything and then immediately to anything in between is uncanny. Like though really.


Well they are being forced on us. Some of us have older bikes with rim brakes because a replacement isn’t available and, as has been noted elsewhere, there’s no need to discard a bike just because they don’t have the latest and greatest technology. My Moots…the one with the disc front and linear rear…is a very good bike that would cost me $8000 just for new frame. It still works as a mountain bike and there’s lots of other things I could dump $8000 on.
Technically you're able to use the old rim brake bikes as long as the frames last. Rim brakes aren't disappearing any time soon. Ancient bike tech is still being made and sold (rod brakes for example). So the forcing is being done only if you want a new mountain bike with rim brakes, but even then you can go custom and request rim brakes.

I wouldn't go back to rim brakes but I also won't push my wife to replace her road bike just because it has rim brakes. It's a fantastic bike which isn't being made anymore so one might say that if that frame ever breaks, she's being forced to get something else than an bianchi impulso.

There is also the contingent of folks here on the Bike Forums and out in the world who try to convince us that we are risking out lives by using rim brakes.
Ehh. Only if you go ride mountains with carbon rims in heavy rain.


​​​​​​​This whole thread started innocently enough with the simple question of “anyone else keeping their rim brake frames?”, and has garnered a whole bunch of insulting responses including being called luddites, being told that we are going to die if we don’t use discs, being told we are inadequate because we don’t use discs, etc. The question wasn’t “are rim brakes better?” or “are disc brakes bad?” There really was no need for disc brake users to even respond other then to stir the pot.
i mean, the whole premise was idiotic to begin with. Who swaps out a bike they like just to get better brakes? If you like it, there's probably no issue. I swapped mine because I didn't like the bike. But that's a different story entirely.
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Old 01-10-23, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Wow... lots of shaming of rim brake proponents here. Not a very inclusive discussion.

Rim brake proponents are being called out for being:
  • Luddites (anti-tech)
  • Inexperienced (with new tech)
  • C&V fans (worst than Luddites)
  • Conspiracy theorists (stick it to the man!)
  • Delusional
  • Etc.
However, the best rim brake proponents (me and Chris Froome) want rim-brake tech because it is simply better, regardless of cost:
  • It is a lot lighter, particularly due to the frame and fork design that doesn't have to support disc-brake forces
  • The wheels are lighter, due to not having to deal with greater braking forces.
  • The rim-brake forks are more compliant, due to not having to be bulked up for disc braking forces
  • Rim brake wheels are more aero
  • Rim brakes don't slice you or your pals in a crash
  • Rim brakes are cheaper and a lot easier to work on.
So there you go. Yes, I have a high-end road bike with discs. It is a boat anchor compared to the same rim brake bike but 2 years older. I work on discs almost every time I'm in the shop. I have $15k to spend on a new bike; going rim brake with Di2 Dura-Ace. Got all the parts I need, except the frame.
Something just isn't adding up here?
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Old 01-10-23, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
My corollary to this apt motto: never argue with anyone or on any topic for more than two (preferably one) post. Anything beyond that makes me look like an immature, insecure loser with no pride or common sense. Make your point once (maybe twice) and move on. Feel sorry for those who argue back and forth endlessly. They have no life and find self worth by being "right" on the internet. I don't always adhere to this, but I try.
Good idea in general, but are you willing to make exceptions for real discussions? (Like this one, for instance?)
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Old 01-10-23, 03:08 PM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
However, the best rim brake proponents (me and Chris Froome) want rim-brake tech because it is simply better, regardless of cost:
  • It is a lot lighter, particularly due to the frame and fork design that doesn't have to support disc-brake forces
  • The wheels are lighter, due to not having to deal with greater braking forces.
  • The rim-brake forks are more compliant, due to not having to be bulked up for disc braking forces
  • Rim brake wheels are more aero
  • Rim brakes don't slice you or your pals in a crash
  • Rim brakes are cheaper and a lot easier to work on.
So there you go. Yes, I have a high-end road bike with discs. It is a boat anchor compared to the same rim brake bike but 2 years older. I work on discs almost every time I'm in the shop. I have $15k to spend on a new bike; going rim brake with Di2 Dura-Ace. Got all the parts I need, except the frame.
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
I forgot a few more road disc-brake downsides, apart from them being heavy, fussy and unnecessary:
  • Extra space on the front hub required for the rotor attachments. This introduces dish on the front wheel and means a weaker build, all things being equal. Plus you need 2 different lengths of spokes for building front wheels - a minor PITA, but still a PITA.
  • Extra space on the rear wheel for the rotor attachments. This is not a trivial problem, as spoke bracing angles and rear hub flange spacing dimensions have gotten so extreme now, that rear wheels are simply weak and unstable. So we have to go with wider stay spacing, which means more heel strike. And wider crankset Q-factor, biomechanically inefficient.
  • Thru-axles. What an absurd PITA! With a QR, you flip the lever and the wheel drops out, just like Tullio Campagnolo meant it to happen. With discs, which tend to eject front wheels, you need a more robust and idiot-proof solution. So now we interminably twiddle away with our thru-axles, and forget them at the trailhead. Of course, there are 20 different thru-axle 'standards'. BTW: thru-axles are not axles, as they do not bear load. They are simply wheel retention devices for riders who cannot be trusted to use a proper QR. Lawyers win this round!
- A rim brake frame can be lighter than a disc brake frame, agreed. 10oz or less in the end. If you are an elite performer, that could definitely make a difference. If you arent, then you are using it as a weak justification.
- Rim brake wheels are not necessarily lighter than disc brake wheels. Rim brake wheels can be lighter, but that doesnt mean they all are lighter. Very few people riding have wheels that weigh less than 1500g so this argument is quite worthless for most people. Disc brake wheels can weigh under 1300g too, so at that point, is this really an argument to make? What are your rim brake wheels and what do they weigh? Again, rim can be lighter, but its not like everyone on rim brakes is riding on wheels that are lighter than disc brake wheels. Stock rim brake wheels on Ultegra level bikes or lower just a few years ago were commonly 1750g to 2050g as a set.
- Rim brake forks can be more compliant. If they have to pass that testing, they will be bulked up well past what most anyone needs, just like disc brake forks. A handmade steel rim brake fork can be very compliant, I do agree with that. .6% of people ride such a fork.
- Rim brake wheels can be more aero. That doesnt mean they all are more aero. There are a ton of disc brake wheels that are clearly more aero than the wheels on any of my rim brake road bikes. Once again you put forth a claim that could be true, but also could be incorrect.
- Rim brakes dont slice you or friends in a crash. Disc brakes also dont slice you of friends in a crash. Lets call this a tie, mkay?
- Rim brakes are cheaper and easier to work on, that is almost universally correct so I will award you this claim as one to continue using. Congrats, you finally got another one.

- A disc wheel up front is perhaps weaker in theory compared to a rim brake wheel due to spoke imbalance. Add 4 spokes and call it good. Thats what November suggests, and I have read similar from many others. Seriously, this is all thats needed and the benefits are wider rims for more comfortable tires, deeper rims for more aero gains, and rims that dont wear out or delaminate from use.
- A rear disc wheel is 142mm vs 130mm for a rim brake wheel. Once the thruaxle is accounted for, a disc wheel is set up as 135mm. The wheel can therefore be plenty strong, contrary to your claim.
- Wider stays dont mean heel strike is an issue. I have size 14 shoes and dont have heel strike. Drop this claim.
- My gravel bike has 43mm tires, it can fit 50mm tires, and I use a road crank and subcompact rings with 147mm Q factor. Drop your claim of needing a wider Q factor. Yes GRX has a wider Q factor, but that isnt needed. Also, wider stay spacing is more for wider tires than disc brakes. Same with a wider Q crank design- you will notice thats associated to a gravel groupset.
- Discs dont tend to eject front wheels. Good lord, settle down with the over the top claims. My kids have MTBs with QR disc forks and there is no ejecting wheel fear. The dropouts are designed differently to account for this and its a non-issue. Drop this claim.
- How many people forget thru-axles at the trailhead? And why are they forgetting thru-axles at the trailhead?
- Thru-axles are not load bearing, correct. They are a piece of metal which GOES THRU THE AXLE and retains the wheel. Who claims they are load bearing? They are no more load bearing than a QR skewer.
- Thru-axles arent just some lawyer creation- they are a better design for centering the rotor each time. You just complained about QR disc design and now you complain about the design that addresses QR discs?



You did manage to make 2 good points in all that.
And as a reminder, my main road bike, backup road bike, backup to the backup road bike, commuter bike and single speed bike are all rim brake. I love rim brakes.
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Old 01-10-23, 03:12 PM
  #336  
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Originally Posted by Nyah
Until thru-axle becomes ubiquitous, I'm sticking w/rim-brakes. That said, rim-brakes have their own good qualities outright. So, yes, I'll be keeping mine. If I get a custom-made frameset that's meant to be light in weight, it will be rim-brake only (not even thru-axle).
Is TA not yet ubiquitous within whatever range of bikes you ride? It seems like they are most anything over $1500(so above Sora) and many bikes with Sora even have TA. If you are buying a $500 bike with discs, thats probably a different story, but is that what you are looking at?
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Old 01-10-23, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Something just isn't adding up here?
I guess if he's about to drop $15k on a new road bike with rim brakes then he needs as much self-justification as humanly possible.
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Old 01-10-23, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
For the most part, a couple posters have been called out for spewing imaginary nonsense about disc brakes.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
Like implications that we are going to die if we don’t use discs? While I don’t agree that discs cause any balance issues, they do introduce problems we haven’t seen before like a front wheel that is dished as well as reducing the bracing angle…and strength…of the rear wheel. The ever wider hubs and frames are answers to these introduced problem.
Even when you take it grossly out of context like this, I wasn’t actually stating that disc brakes separate anyone from death. But I do think that some riders, who spend most of their miles on relatively tame terrain, may not understand that others have the need for more stopping power – – stopping power which works in wet and muddy conditions, which can be applied with only light pressure on the levers, etc.

In other words, this thread is full of the sorts of judgments that this forum is known for: posters telling others, “I don’t need that, so you’re a fool for embracing it.“
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Old 01-10-23, 03:37 PM
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It must be winter when threads like this at the top of the General section.
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Old 01-10-23, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeeze
It must be winter when threads like this at the top of the General section.
It's only at the top because someone deleted the Dubai hooker threads.
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Old 01-10-23, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It's only at the top because someone deleted the Dubai hooker threads.
I'm holding out for Abu Dabi hookers. Totally different than Dubai hookers.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I'm holding out for Abu Dabi hookers. Totally different than Dubai hookers.
You know the difference between Dubai and Abu Dabi? The people in Dubai don't like the Flintstones,, but the people in Abu Dabi do.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
You know the difference between Dubai and Abu Dabi? The people in Dubai don't like the Flintstones,, but the people in Abu Dabi do.
That's worth a triple groan.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
You know the difference between Dubai and Abu Dabi? The people in Dubai don't like the Flintstones,, but the people in Abu Dabi do.
I would bet that most of my kids' generation would not get this joke. Sad.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
That's worth a triple groan.
I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your server.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Wow... lots of shaming of rim brake proponents here. Not a very inclusive discussion.

Rim brake proponents are being called out for being:
  • Luddites (anti-tech)
  • Inexperienced (with new tech)
  • C&V fans (worst than Luddites)
  • Conspiracy theorists (stick it to the man!)
  • Delusional
  • Etc.
However, the best rim brake proponents (me and Chris Froome) want rim-brake tech because it is simply better, regardless of cost:
  • It is a lot lighter, particularly due to the frame and fork design that doesn't have to support disc-brake forces
  • The wheels are lighter, due to not having to deal with greater braking forces.
  • The rim-brake forks are more compliant, due to not having to be bulked up for disc braking forces
  • Rim brake wheels are more aero
  • Rim brakes don't slice you or your pals in a crash
  • Rim brakes are cheaper and a lot easier to work on.
So there you go. Yes, I have a high-end road bike with discs. It is a boat anchor compared to the same rim brake bike but 2 years older. I work on discs almost every time I'm in the shop. I have $15k to spend on a new bike; going rim brake with Di2 Dura-Ace. Got all the parts I need, except the frame.
Don't forget they are being called old and fossils too. Some people just cannot believe that someone may like a particular bike. The brakes are secondary. Does it stop? Yes. Okay then.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:21 PM
  #347  
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Originally Posted by Squeeze
It must be winter when threads like this at the top of the General section.
Nah, the same person, using a different name, made the same type of threads all summer with the same result. It's tiresome.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I would bet that most of my kids' generation would not get this joke. Sad.
I mentioned The Flintstones a few weeks ago to a team of 15yo girls and 2 new what I was talking about. Sadly, one who didnt was my kid...and I have told her about The Flintstones!
Ha, that messed with me in multiple ways.
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Old 01-10-23, 04:27 PM
  #349  
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Originally Posted by big john
I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your server.
How's the veal?
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Old 01-10-23, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Even when you take it grossly out of context like this, I wasn’t actually stating that disc brakes separate anyone from death. But I do think that some riders, who spend most of their miles on relatively tame terrain, may not understand that others have the need for more stopping power – – stopping power which works in wet and muddy conditions, which can be applied with only light pressure on the levers, etc.
Nothing out of context. You said that people broke their necks at gravel events and that brakes are important. I’m not sure how that works since most of the gravel bikes I’ve ever seen are disc equipped but…. Of course some of us have spent a lifetime riding in “wet and muddy conditions” on terrain that is anything but tame and, yet, somehow we survived cantilevers! Oh, the horror!

There isn’t a good brake out there…cantilever, dual pivot, linear, or disc…that requires more than “light pressure” to make them stop. Even loaded with my large self and enough touring equipment to live on the road for weeks at a time, my cantilevers don’t require massive amounts of pull to stop the bike. I brake from the hoods 99% of the time, even on stupidly fast downhills. Mountain bikes moved away from 4 finger levers even when cantilevers were the only brake in town.

In other words, this thread is full of the sorts of judgments that this forum is known for: posters telling others, “I don’t need that, so you’re a fool for embracing it.“
Yes, I agree but not for the reasons you think. There are far more disc fans telling rim brake users that they are old, fools, stupid, going to die, etc. (pick as many as you like) than there are rim brake fans telling disc brake users the same thing. I personally use both and don’t see any difference between the two. That’s road riding, gravel riding, touring, mountain biking, and mountain bike touring. Way back in post 86 I showed my mountain bike with disc and linear. Here’s what I do with it. This is Schofield Pass in central Colorado. It’s one of the toughest passes I’ve ever done…and I’ve ridden a lot of passes here in my state.



The brakes worked fine…perhaps too well. This is the aftermath of falling on a roughly 25% grade.



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