Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?
01-10-23, 04:52 PM
#351
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01-10-23, 05:03 PM
#352
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But regardless, "real discussion" or not - I think it's sad when people seem to have an over whelming need to win internet arguments. Make your point, move on. Accept that others not only disagree with you, they may indeed be wrong. Big deal.
01-10-23, 05:26 PM
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I don't think OPs thread and question is the problem....The real problem is a handful of posters who believe that a person can't be a serious cyclist and cycling enthusiast unless they're up to date on the latest and the greatest in bike innovation and technology.
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01-10-23, 05:31 PM
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The other problem is those who take every random opinion as a personal insult directed at them, and then wallow in the grave injustice they think they've suffered.
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01-10-23, 05:31 PM
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That didn't actually happen in this thread.
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01-10-23, 05:34 PM
#356
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Well, it's 5:30 here. I'm fixing a rye whiskey on the rocks. I suggest y'all join me.
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01-10-23, 05:53 PM
#358
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01-10-23, 06:01 PM
#359
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Now I don't know your speeds and it doesn't really matter. Speed is rider dependent more than gear.
But I have personally noticed that even with a fatbike (which is my sole mountain bike) modern tech makes it easier to go faster. Modern geometry is far more forgiving than something with short wheelbase and steep headtube angle. Longer travel too. 700+mm bars definitely (I think I have 750mm...). And hydraulic brakes, which make actuation quicker and stronger so you can scrub speed in shorter intervals, ie. Between rocks or ice patches or other treacherous surfaces which'll launch the front or rear tire as soon as you try to brake on them.
A rider can increase that deceleration to about 0.9g (8.8 m/s^2) by moving the CG back and down a relatively small amount…roughly 4” down and 2” back. But the brakes, even in that case, have little to do with that increase in deceleration. The pitch over deceleration is still limited but the tires. We simply don’t have enough weight to slide the front wheel like a lower GC car can. We still can go over the bar before the front wheel slides.
In low traction situations like ice and water, having a more powerful clamping force…if that even exists…doesn’t do you any favors. Having a touchy brake or grabby brake is going to lock the front wheel and cause you to crash because you lose the ability to stay upright. Braking on ice…especially the front brake…doesn’t end well. In other words, having a more powerful brake is a detriment.
Example time. It takes time to use force. I can wave a drumstick back and forth pretty quickly but waving a lead pipe is much slower. Same thing with brakes really. If it takes more force to actuate the brake, the actuation pulsing speed one can do is going to be slower than with a more powerful brake.
I've never been faster than with my current brake setup which is more powerful than most cyclists will ever experience. The Shigura setup with 203mm rotors I'm sporting is more powerful than trickstuff maxima. And it's still not on/off but rather more controllable than any brake I've used so far. The speed you can go from nothing to everything and then immediately to anything in between is uncanny. Like though really.
Ehh. Only if you go ride mountains with carbon rims in heavy rain.
i mean, the whole premise was idiotic to begin with. Who swaps out a bike they like just to get better brakes? If you like it, there's probably no issue. I swapped mine because I didn't like the bike. But that's a different story entirely.
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01-10-23, 06:04 PM
#360
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You know that you aren’t obligated to read these kinds of threads. If you find it tiresome, move along. It’s that simple.
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01-10-23, 06:17 PM
#361
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01-10-23, 06:27 PM
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01-10-23, 06:42 PM
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When I first started riding gravel, I was not happy with the way rim brakes worked around here because there are some steep downhills. I was afraid to go too fast because I didn't feel like I could control my speed. So I suppose I got a bike for disc brakes. I generally see no need for disc brakes on a road bike, but I have had a couple of occasions where I wished I had them on the road. But I'm not getting rid of my rim brake road bikes.
01-10-23, 06:56 PM
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Rim vs disc brakes
My favorite bike is my 12yo steel Steve Rex with rim brakes. But I wish it had the disc brakes on my Trek Domane.
Last edited by don compton; 01-11-23 at 09:24 PM. Reason: spelling
01-10-23, 06:56 PM
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I used to like to get a new road bike just because I wanted one, nothing to do with advertising or peer pressure. If I had a job I would get one now and it would probably be disc, but I wouldn't rule out rim brakes. Probably not going to get a job, though. Being retired is too awesome. Maybe Mrs will buy me one.
01-10-23, 07:35 PM
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01-10-23, 07:37 PM
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01-10-23, 07:52 PM
#370
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- A rim brake frame can be lighter than a disc brake frame, agreed. 10oz or less in the end. If you are an elite performer, that could definitely make a difference. If you arent, then you are using it as a weak justification.
- Rim brake wheels are not necessarily lighter than disc brake wheels. Rim brake wheels can be lighter, but that doesnt mean they all are lighter. Very few people riding have wheels that weigh less than 1500g so this argument is quite worthless for most people. Disc brake wheels can weigh under 1300g too, so at that point, is this really an argument to make? What are your rim brake wheels and what do they weigh? Again, rim can be lighter, but its not like everyone on rim brakes is riding on wheels that are lighter than disc brake wheels. Stock rim brake wheels on Ultegra level bikes or lower just a few years ago were commonly 1750g to 2050g as a set.
- Rim brake forks can be more compliant. If they have to pass that testing, they will be bulked up well past what most anyone needs, just like disc brake forks. A handmade steel rim brake fork can be very compliant, I do agree with that. .6% of people ride such a fork.
- Rim brake wheels can be more aero. That doesnt mean they all are more aero. There are a ton of disc brake wheels that are clearly more aero than the wheels on any of my rim brake road bikes. Once again you put forth a claim that could be true, but also could be incorrect.
- Rim brakes dont slice you or friends in a crash. Disc brakes also dont slice you of friends in a crash. Lets call this a tie, mkay?
- Rim brakes are cheaper and easier to work on, that is almost universally correct so I will award you this claim as one to continue using. Congrats, you finally got another one.
- A disc wheel up front is perhaps weaker in theory compared to a rim brake wheel due to spoke imbalance. Add 4 spokes and call it good. Thats what November suggests, and I have read similar from many others. Seriously, this is all thats needed and the benefits are wider rims for more comfortable tires, deeper rims for more aero gains, and rims that dont wear out or delaminate from use.
- A rear disc wheel is 142mm vs 130mm for a rim brake wheel. Once the thruaxle is accounted for, a disc wheel is set up as 135mm. The wheel can therefore be plenty strong, contrary to your claim.
- Wider stays dont mean heel strike is an issue. I have size 14 shoes and dont have heel strike. Drop this claim.
- My gravel bike has 43mm tires, it can fit 50mm tires, and I use a road crank and subcompact rings with 147mm Q factor. Drop your claim of needing a wider Q factor. Yes GRX has a wider Q factor, but that isnt needed. Also, wider stay spacing is more for wider tires than disc brakes. Same with a wider Q crank design- you will notice thats associated to a gravel groupset.
- Discs dont tend to eject front wheels. Good lord, settle down with the over the top claims. My kids have MTBs with QR disc forks and there is no ejecting wheel fear. The dropouts are designed differently to account for this and its a non-issue. Drop this claim.
- How many people forget thru-axles at the trailhead? And why are they forgetting thru-axles at the trailhead?
- Thru-axles are not load bearing, correct. They are a piece of metal which GOES THRU THE AXLE and retains the wheel. Who claims they are load bearing? They are no more load bearing than a QR skewer.
- Thru-axles arent just some lawyer creation- they are a better design for centering the rotor each time. You just complained about QR disc design and now you complain about the design that addresses QR discs?
You did manage to make 2 good points in all that.
And as a reminder, my main road bike, backup road bike, backup to the backup road bike, commuter bike and single speed bike are all rim brake. I love rim brakes.
- Rim brake wheels are not necessarily lighter than disc brake wheels. Rim brake wheels can be lighter, but that doesnt mean they all are lighter. Very few people riding have wheels that weigh less than 1500g so this argument is quite worthless for most people. Disc brake wheels can weigh under 1300g too, so at that point, is this really an argument to make? What are your rim brake wheels and what do they weigh? Again, rim can be lighter, but its not like everyone on rim brakes is riding on wheels that are lighter than disc brake wheels. Stock rim brake wheels on Ultegra level bikes or lower just a few years ago were commonly 1750g to 2050g as a set.
- Rim brake forks can be more compliant. If they have to pass that testing, they will be bulked up well past what most anyone needs, just like disc brake forks. A handmade steel rim brake fork can be very compliant, I do agree with that. .6% of people ride such a fork.
- Rim brake wheels can be more aero. That doesnt mean they all are more aero. There are a ton of disc brake wheels that are clearly more aero than the wheels on any of my rim brake road bikes. Once again you put forth a claim that could be true, but also could be incorrect.
- Rim brakes dont slice you or friends in a crash. Disc brakes also dont slice you of friends in a crash. Lets call this a tie, mkay?
- Rim brakes are cheaper and easier to work on, that is almost universally correct so I will award you this claim as one to continue using. Congrats, you finally got another one.
- A disc wheel up front is perhaps weaker in theory compared to a rim brake wheel due to spoke imbalance. Add 4 spokes and call it good. Thats what November suggests, and I have read similar from many others. Seriously, this is all thats needed and the benefits are wider rims for more comfortable tires, deeper rims for more aero gains, and rims that dont wear out or delaminate from use.
- A rear disc wheel is 142mm vs 130mm for a rim brake wheel. Once the thruaxle is accounted for, a disc wheel is set up as 135mm. The wheel can therefore be plenty strong, contrary to your claim.
- Wider stays dont mean heel strike is an issue. I have size 14 shoes and dont have heel strike. Drop this claim.
- My gravel bike has 43mm tires, it can fit 50mm tires, and I use a road crank and subcompact rings with 147mm Q factor. Drop your claim of needing a wider Q factor. Yes GRX has a wider Q factor, but that isnt needed. Also, wider stay spacing is more for wider tires than disc brakes. Same with a wider Q crank design- you will notice thats associated to a gravel groupset.
- Discs dont tend to eject front wheels. Good lord, settle down with the over the top claims. My kids have MTBs with QR disc forks and there is no ejecting wheel fear. The dropouts are designed differently to account for this and its a non-issue. Drop this claim.
- How many people forget thru-axles at the trailhead? And why are they forgetting thru-axles at the trailhead?
- Thru-axles are not load bearing, correct. They are a piece of metal which GOES THRU THE AXLE and retains the wheel. Who claims they are load bearing? They are no more load bearing than a QR skewer.
- Thru-axles arent just some lawyer creation- they are a better design for centering the rotor each time. You just complained about QR disc design and now you complain about the design that addresses QR discs?
You did manage to make 2 good points in all that.
And as a reminder, my main road bike, backup road bike, backup to the backup road bike, commuter bike and single speed bike are all rim brake. I love rim brakes.
Anyway, not surprised this thread has still not flamed out. I'll give you credit here, in that unlike most of the terse 'hair on fire' pro-disc responses, your listing was somewhat fulsome and thoughtful. Although mostly wrong. Most of the pro-disc responses go like this: "It's the new thing... so it must be better!".
On my new road bike I'm going for light weight, particularly wheel rotating mass, as this is the single biggest performance attribute. Aero: don't need it - at speeds high enough so that aero is important, I'm probably drafting some big guy. Wide tires... they are heavy, less aero and have higher rolling resistance. Regardless: there are only trivial rolling resistance differences between road tires. Besides, I'm not a fatty, so I don't need tires >25mm.
So you list 1,300 gram disc wheels. I don't want 1,300g wheels - I want 1,100 g wheels or less, like my Zipps. And I want 16 radial spokes. So if you can direct me to some 1,100 gram 16-spoke disc wheels (including rotors), I'm interested. I also want a sub-800 gram frameset and a 350 gram fork. That is painted with the derailleur hanger - no cheating.
No thru-axles; I'm competent enough to use standard QRs. I have no trouble aligning the wheel in my fork ends.
I also want a bike with rear 130mm stays, and a tight a Q-factor as possible. So 145 mm Ultra-Torque spec or lower. I don't want riding a bike to feel like riding a horse.
So if I can get all of that with discs - I'm all in!
Last edited by Dave Mayer; 01-10-23 at 07:57 PM.
01-10-23, 07:57 PM
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01-10-23, 08:39 PM
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01-10-23, 08:41 PM
#373
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OK, back from a delightful ride on my superior 'rim brake' technology bike. I should trademark this term. But I have no doubt that one of the 'big-3' will reintroduce some variation of rim brake road bikes in about 10 years and trumpet about how much lighter and responsive and newer it is. Just think: the rims and the braking surface are integrated, dispensing with the need for rotors! It will be patented and defended with scorched-earth lawsuits - no doubt.
Anyway, not surprised this thread has still not flamed out. I'll give you credit here, in that unlike most of the terse 'hair on fire' pro-disc responses, your listing was somewhat fulsome and thoughtful. Although mostly wrong. Most of the pro-disc responses go like this: "It's the new thing... so it must be better!".
On my new road bike I'm going for light weight, particularly wheel rotating mass, as this is the single biggest performance attribute. Aero: don't need it - at speeds high enough so that aero is important, I'm probably drafting some big guy. Wide tires... they are heavy, less aero and have higher rolling resistance. Regardless: there are only trivial rolling resistance differences between road tires. Besides, I'm not a fatty, so I don't need tires >25mm.
So you list 1,300 gram disc wheels. I don't want 1,300g wheels - I want 1,100 g wheels or less, like my Zipps. And I want 16 radial spokes. So if you can direct me to some 1,100 gram 16-spoke disc wheels (including rotors), I'm interested. I also want a sub-800 gram frameset and a 350 gram fork. That is painted with the derailleur hanger - no cheating.
No thru-axles; I'm competent enough to use standard QRs. I have no trouble aligning the wheel in my fork ends.
I also want a bike with rear 130mm stays, and a tight a Q-factor as possible. So 145 mm Ultra-Torque spec or lower. I don't want riding a bike to feel like riding a horse.
So if I can get all of that with discs - I'm all in!
Anyway, not surprised this thread has still not flamed out. I'll give you credit here, in that unlike most of the terse 'hair on fire' pro-disc responses, your listing was somewhat fulsome and thoughtful. Although mostly wrong. Most of the pro-disc responses go like this: "It's the new thing... so it must be better!".
On my new road bike I'm going for light weight, particularly wheel rotating mass, as this is the single biggest performance attribute. Aero: don't need it - at speeds high enough so that aero is important, I'm probably drafting some big guy. Wide tires... they are heavy, less aero and have higher rolling resistance. Regardless: there are only trivial rolling resistance differences between road tires. Besides, I'm not a fatty, so I don't need tires >25mm.
So you list 1,300 gram disc wheels. I don't want 1,300g wheels - I want 1,100 g wheels or less, like my Zipps. And I want 16 radial spokes. So if you can direct me to some 1,100 gram 16-spoke disc wheels (including rotors), I'm interested. I also want a sub-800 gram frameset and a 350 gram fork. That is painted with the derailleur hanger - no cheating.
No thru-axles; I'm competent enough to use standard QRs. I have no trouble aligning the wheel in my fork ends.
I also want a bike with rear 130mm stays, and a tight a Q-factor as possible. So 145 mm Ultra-Torque spec or lower. I don't want riding a bike to feel like riding a horse.
So if I can get all of that with discs - I'm all in!
1054g and only $770. More spokes and they won't leave you stranded if a spoke breaks, unlike your Zipps.
Your demand for 130mm rear spacing is completely arbitrary and you know it doesn't exist for disc brakes. The standard is 142mm, which is really just 135mm QR. They are 5mm wider than your arbitrary limit. Why do you say 130mm is needed? Earlier you complained about spoke strength and 135mm will be stronger than 130mm, all things considered. Yet now, you demand 130mm disc spacing. Odd.
Also not sure why rotors must be included in the wheel weight. Are rim brake shoes and pads included in rim brake wheel weight? Of course not.
A 25mm or 28mm tire is fine to use if you want. A wider rim will combine with those tires to make a.more aero system than narrow lightweight rim brake wheels.
Yes yes, you claim you don't care about aero. That's just goofy and has been shown to be misplaced priority many times over, but you clearly will do what you need to confirm your biases.
As for frame and fork- Specialized Aethos. I am not going to bother to look at some extreme unknown example when a well known example is well below your demand.
Size 56 Aethos S-Works frame is 585g and fork is 300g.
Size 56 Aethos Comp frame is 699g and fork is 300g.
As for Q factor, use whatever crank you want. If you feel a 2mm difference in Q factor is riding a horse, you have clearly lost touch with reality. But really- use a narrower crank if you want. I didn't cite a 147mm Q factor crank for any reason beyond its what I happen to use. You go ahead and use something different.
I did chuckle after reading your post because you say my comments are wrong, but don't refute them.
OK then.
01-10-23, 08:52 PM
#374
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I'm still not saying that one technology is better than the other and I don't give two bowel movements what anyone rides. But now that it has been brought up, I like thru-axels. And I will keep my QR bikes just as I will keep my rim brake bikes.
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01-10-23, 09:14 PM
#375
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I have a Cannondale road bike with rim brakes. Her name is Candy. I enjoy riding her.
I have a gravel bike with disc brakes. Her name is Shef. I enjoy riding her too.
I have a titanium endurance bike with disc brakes. Her name is Titty. I really enjoy riding her.
I'm about to offer a home to an elderly steel Condor with rim brakes. I havent thought of a name for her (yet), and I'll only take her outside when the weather is clement.
For me - brakes are not the most important criterion, provided they work. I share my time between the plains and the hills. I ride my girls in both environments.
I dont think I'll ever ride a bike with a boy's name ;-)
I have a gravel bike with disc brakes. Her name is Shef. I enjoy riding her too.
I have a titanium endurance bike with disc brakes. Her name is Titty. I really enjoy riding her.
I'm about to offer a home to an elderly steel Condor with rim brakes. I havent thought of a name for her (yet), and I'll only take her outside when the weather is clement.
For me - brakes are not the most important criterion, provided they work. I share my time between the plains and the hills. I ride my girls in both environments.
I dont think I'll ever ride a bike with a boy's name ;-)
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