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Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?

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Anyone else keeping their rim brake frames ?

Old 01-19-23, 08:10 AM
  #551  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by smd4
I never said it was the company's rhetoric.
Yeah, sure.
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Old 01-19-23, 08:50 AM
  #552  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Yeah, sure.
Dude, seriously. Cinelli doesn't even mention its builders. Do some research.
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Old 01-19-23, 09:25 AM
  #553  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Dude, seriously. Cinelli doesn't even mention its builders. Do some research.
Velo-Retro: Cinelli Timeline

- Mario Camilotto - built frames from 1988-91. Previously Camilotto had worked with Sante Pogliaghi as a frame builder from 1978-83.
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Old 01-19-23, 09:41 AM
  #554  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Oh...and a bike frame hand built by one guy can hardly be considered "mass-produced."
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Once batch production started in the 70s there were many people involved in the manufacturing of each frame. Tubes were mitred and prepped in batches based on frame size by one or more individuals. Rear triangles were batch made separately. Forks were batch made by another. Luggs were prepped and cleaned up. Main triangle were made in lots based on size. Frames were then joined in another section. Welds were cleaned up by another and cold set for alignment. Finally decals and paint done by another. Each of these workstations would have been stafffed by one or more production workers. The urban myth that the founder or a single artisan was behind these Italian bike boom bikes from the 70s on is nothing but an effective urban legend to create a sense of exclusivity.
From the page big john linked, with emphasis added:

​​​​​​1947
Cino lures framebuilder Luigi Valsasina from Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Valsassina was the framebuilder who had built Cino's bikes when he raced for Bianchi. Valsassina remained with Cinelli & C. S.r.l. until 1980, a few years after the sale to Antonio Colombo of Columbus tubing in 1976. Valsassina is the sole person in charge of all framebuilding during Cino's time even though he had a number of people who worked for him and assisted him. Likely average annual production was approximately 250 frames/bikes per year.



I think that quote is quite clear.
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Old 01-19-23, 09:46 AM
  #555  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Dude, seriously. Cinelli doesn't even mention its builders. Do some research.

Bummer. I know who welded both of my Cannondales (the '96 and the '89) their initials are on the left dropout. One of those things from the "Handmade in the USA" days. One of them was even an active member on this site.

Last edited by Ironfish653; 01-19-23 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:05 AM
  #556  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
From the page big john linked, with emphasis added:

​​​​​​1947
Cino lures framebuilder Luigi Valsasina from Bianchi's Reparto Corse. Valsassina was the framebuilder who had built Cino's bikes when he raced for Bianchi. Valsassina remained with Cinelli & C. S.r.l. until 1980, a few years after the sale to Antonio Colombo of Columbus tubing in 1976. Valsassina is the sole person in charge of all framebuilding during Cino's time even though he had a number of people who worked for him and assisted him. Likely average annual production was approximately 250 frames/bikes per year.



I think that quote is quite clear.
My frame is a 1989. But thanks.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:12 AM
  #557  
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Originally Posted by smd4
My frame is a 1989. But thanks.
You think that, over time, they went to smaller scale production, with fewer builders and less division of labor? Really?
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Old 01-19-23, 10:19 AM
  #558  
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My frame was handmade by a dozen Tawainese virgins, rather than some grizzled old Italian bloke.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:25 AM
  #559  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
My frame was handmade by a dozen Tawainese virgins, rather than some grizzled old Italian bloke.
Man, if I had written that, the howls of "RACSIM!!" would have been deafening.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:31 AM
  #560  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Man, if I had written that, the howls of "RACSIM!!" would have been deafening.
I can pretty much guarantee no one would have accused you of racsim.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:32 AM
  #561  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Man, if I had written that, the howls of "RACSIM!!" would have been deafening.
What's racist about stating the nationality of bike builders? Somone could argue it was sexist if they didn't have a sense of humour.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:33 AM
  #562  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I can pretty much guarantee no one would have accused you of racsim.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:33 AM
  #563  
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This is not to take away from what is a very beautiful bicycle that I lusted for in the 70s with a 1st Generation Super Record Group. But these bikes were everywhere, and they obviously understated production. Every premium bike shop in Europe and North America had numerous top-end Italian bikes in stock and the start line in local criteriums from small town Australia to Vancouver Canada was full of bikes that ended with a vowel and were supposedly hand-made in some small artisanal workshop.

My google response:

"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."

"By the late 1970s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 01-19-23 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 01-19-23, 10:49 AM
  #564  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
This is not to take away from what is a very beautiful bicycle that I lusted for in the 70s with a 1st Generation Super Record Group. But these bikes were everywhere, and they obviously understated production. Every premium bike shop in Europe and North America has numerous top-end Italian bikes in stock and the start line in local criteriums from small town Australia to Vancouver Canada has full of bikes that ended with a vowel and were supposedly hand-made in some small artisanal workshop.

My google response:

"From there, annual production of stems and bars rose from 5,000 during the 1950s, to 7,500 in the 1960s and to 150,000 by 1978, while also producing more than 700 frames per year."

"By the late 1970’s, Cinelli was the principle maker of stems and handlebars, as well as the OEM supplier to virtually every bike brand, while frame-making continued to increase as well, still relying on the basic design principles of his original Speciale Corsa frame from 1947."
But I'm sure that one frame from 1989 was completely - start to finish - built by just one guy named Luigi.

Right.

It's weird for smd4 to obsess on that particular myth, especially since it's very unlikely that an individual could do each of the framebuilding tasks better than they could each be done by a specialist who is trained for, and performs that task, all day long.

I've got a custom built frame that I'll ride this afternoon, and I've never even wondered how many people were involved in its production. It's irrelevant to me. But then, I buy bikes to ride.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:43 PM
  #565  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
You think that, over time, they went to smaller scale production, with fewer builders and less division of labor? Really?
I'm sure the "master builders" are/were in charge and supervise things but not building the whole thing themselves.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:52 PM
  #566  
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Originally Posted by big john
I'm sure the "master builders" are/were in charge and supervise things but not building the whole thing themselves.
Try convincing smd4 of that.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:58 PM
  #567  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Try convincing smd4 of that.
Albert Eisentraut said "Frame building is not romantic".
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Old 01-20-23, 06:44 AM
  #568  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
But I'm sure that one frame from 1989 was completely - start to finish - built by just one guy named Luigi.
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Old 01-20-23, 06:46 AM
  #569  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
You must be retired.
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Old 01-20-23, 06:48 AM
  #570  
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Originally Posted by smd4
You must be retired.
Come again?
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Old 01-20-23, 06:54 AM
  #571  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Come again?
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Just sayin.
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Old 01-20-23, 07:10 AM
  #572  
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Originally Posted by smd4
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Just sayin.
No, I'm just efficient.
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Old 01-20-23, 11:36 AM
  #573  
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Originally Posted by smd4
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Just sayin.
It takes 5 seconds to pull an image off google.
Ironic that you mention someone else having time on their hands.
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Old 01-20-23, 01:37 PM
  #574  
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Originally Posted by smd4
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Just sayin.’
Since you mention too much time on one’s hand. I am still playing around with this hand built myth. Even if we run with Cinelli bs numbers of 700+ per year much less the thousands by Colnago, Masi and the usual suspects. There are approximately 230 working days a year in Italy maximum so we are talking approximately 3 frames a day or 2.5 hours per frame in Cinelli case. Is that really something to be happy about.
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Old 01-20-23, 01:41 PM
  #575  
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Be happy about what? How much time it takes to make a frame? Not sure I'd really associate any emotion with that.
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