Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

How can a $14,000 bicycle possibly be worth the money?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

How can a $14,000 bicycle possibly be worth the money?

Old 01-19-23, 06:58 AM
  #451  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Trakhak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 3,858
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1552 Post(s)
Liked 1,585 Times in 924 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
Same frame size - both bikes fit me with the same length stem and a similar amount of exposed seat post.. I haven't measured, but the wheelbases are probably pretty close. These are both race bikes with tight rear ends. I think the aluminum bike has a slightly slacker head tube angle, but probably by less than a degree. The most noticeable difference I feel between the two is in lateral stiffness under heavy power, but there is also some difference in the smoothness of the ride.
Posts here (including your most recent post, quoted above) have had me starting to doubt myself. Am I somehow wrong---are there indeed real differences in vertical compliance between aluminum and steel frames---differences I can't detect because of some deficiency in my powers of perception? (The late Sheldon Brown stated flatly decades ago that there are no such differences, but he could have been wrong, too, I guess.)

So I just now did a search using something like "measured differences in vertical compliance between aluminum and steel bike frames" and found many results. (The link at the bottom of this post is to one of a number of reports with similar conclusions.)

From what I read in several of those reports, the numbers indicate that there isn't enough vertical compliance in any bike, regardless of frame material, to differentiate it from any other (broadly similar) bike.

Not saying that the people who swear that aluminum bikes rattle your fillings out and so on don't really perceive that. But the numbers would seem to suggest that there's little more than confirmation bias behind those perceptions. Or, if not that, that the bike with the "harsher ride" has a shorter wheelbase.

Whenever yet another discussion of bike comfort versus frame material shows up on Bike Forums, I always immediately look for a mention of the bike's wheelbase as a possible contributory factor. But I rarely or never see any discussions that touch on the significance of a bike's wheelbase for its riding characteristics. The wheelbase seems to be universally thought to be what it is merely as a consequence of other, far more significant geometry decisions. But I think it's the other way around---that it's the chosen wheelbase that determines how the bike rides.

A comparison from my own fleet of bikes (and from my 55 years of riding first pro-level steel and then aluminum and carbon road and track bikes and thinking about this topic):

My Specialized Langster track bike (aluminum frame with large-diameter tubing, aluminum straight-bladed fork with large-diameter tubing, more or less standard road bike racing geometry) has a 98-cm wheelbase.

My Felt TK2 track bike (aluminum frame with large-diameter tubing, carbon straight-bladed fork, standard track racing geometry) has a 94-cm wheelbase.

I don't feel any difference between the bikes in vertical compliance ("comfort"). But the handling of the Felt is hair-raising (except at racing speed). Given that the Felt requires constant attention because of the rapidity with which it reacts to steering input, I don't find riding it on the road comfortable at all. It's spectacularly fast. But "relaxing" is about the last term I'd use for the riding experience.

For what it's worth, I'd describe the ride of the Bianchi steel track bike I rode in the 1980s the same way. The Langster, on the other hand, is my all-time favorite bike. I absolutely love how it rides.

I'll now shut up about this and suggest looking at the information in the linked article.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-imp...han-aluminium/
Trakhak is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 08:06 AM
  #452  
Lombard
Sock Puppet
 
Lombard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,258

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 670 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Evian spelled backwards is Naive
Ha! I have to steal this one!
Lombard is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 08:10 AM
  #453  
Lombard
Sock Puppet
 
Lombard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,258

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 670 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
I'm perfectly happy with my 5 bikes which range from $0 (old MTB) to $5000 (newish Lynskey GR300 w/ AXS Force and decent wheels), the other three in the $1-2,000 range. Very happy, have no current desire for n+1.
After accumulating 9 bikes and selling two of them, my n+1 desires have faded. I currently own 7 bikes ranging from $500 to $2,200. I currently put miles predominantly on 2 of them. 3 others get ridden occasionally and 2 of them are gathering dust.
Lombard is offline  
Likes For Lombard:
Old 01-19-23, 08:44 AM
  #454  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 12,848

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 296 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1148 Post(s)
Liked 1,888 Times in 1,114 Posts
There are some very interesting posts in this thread that members put a lot of thought into. Thanks for that.

Like many here, I ride a lot and on different bikes. I have a lot of bikes but ride them all - road, back up road, time trial, track, gravel and tandem. I have a race bike and wheels in a locker at the LA velodrome set up for that track. In aggregate, the hardware is a significant investment. I use the word investment but in reality it is more of a cost. All my bikes are depreciating rapidly in value and thankfully, I am getting value out of riding them.

My nightmare scenario is spending any amount of money on a bike, components, electronics or wheels and then hating it. If I buy a bike or related stuff and love it well then, that is a home run. If I paid too much but love it, it is still a home run.

If I have to re-saddle my bikes it is a lot of money at that moment in time and of course saddle last but not indefinitely.

Personally, there are a couple of features and components on the S-Works that I would not like a lot. I see the S-Works line of bikes as a highly integrated optimized for both aero and weight with no compromises. I would have to love that bike a lot to buy it and be offered a long test ride by the LBS prior to pulling the trigger. And I could probably get a lot of performance out of it since my race craft is pretty good. And unless I tested that bike at the track or in the wind tunnel, I may be faster on one of my existing bikes than the S-Works. Ones body on the bike tested together is what matters.

Personally, I would like a set of Lightweight Obermayer wheels just to ride around on for a conversation piece. The price has come down on those wheels so a set today is around $5000.

In the older days of BF, Zipp wheels were the gold standard and Obermayer drew threads similar to this one due to price. Why would anyone pay that much for a set of wheels - because one can.

What the bike industry is good at is offering new stuff that is marginally better than older products and as a result cause rapid price depreciation of any new purchase. If you buy it, you better love it.
Hermes is offline  
Likes For Hermes:
Old 01-19-23, 09:18 AM
  #455  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,017
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2543 Post(s)
Liked 2,718 Times in 1,716 Posts
Originally Posted by Random11 View Post
I've wondered the same thing as the OP. I'm not disagreeing. I'm wondering.

I have two bikes with carbon fiber frames and mechanical Ultegra groupsets that have a new price less than 1/3 of a $14,000 bike. What extra value would I get if I spent another $10,000 to get the $14,000 bike? What differences would I notice on my rides compared to the bikes I have now? One answer is electronic shifting, which I don't particularly want, but that's a difference. What else would I notice in the more expensive bike? That''s a serious question on my part and I don't know the answer because I've never tried a bike like that.

Don't tell me it has higher quality carbon or something like that. Tell me what differences I would notice riding the more expensive bike. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'm saying I don't know what they are, so back to the OP's original question: Where's the value in a bike that expensive? Why is the riding experience better?
The simple answer is not a lot, just a few marginal gains. For me these marginal gains are rapidly running out at Shimano 105 group level and I call it a day at Ultegra Di2 level. I currently have 2 very similar road bikes. My Giant Defy was £2k (discounted from £3k retail) and my Canyon Endurace was £4.5k (full retail). Objectively they ride pretty much the same, although I do prefer the electronic shifting on my Canyon (SRAM Force AXS) and the carbon bars are more comfortable than the cheaper alloy bars on my Giant. That's all I can actually feel for an extra £2.5k, but I'm not complaining.

There is a £10k version of my Canyon, but I'm not prepared to pay double the money for a marginal weight reduction and DA level groupset. I'm not convinced I would be able to tell them apart in a blind test, but I haven't tried that!
PeteHski is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 09:24 AM
  #456  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,673
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6057 Post(s)
Liked 9,170 Times in 3,962 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
There is a £10k version of my Canyon, but I'm not prepared to pay double the money for a marginal weight reduction and DA level groupset. I'm not convinced I would be able to tell them apart in a blind test, but I haven't tried that!
If you do try it, be sure to wear a helmet.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-19-23, 09:46 AM
  #457  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 21,960
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6146 Post(s)
Liked 6,120 Times in 3,087 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Posts here (including your most recent post, quoted above) have had me starting to doubt myself. Am I somehow wrong---are there indeed real differences in vertical compliance between aluminum and steel frames---differences I can't detect because of some deficiency in my powers of perception? (The late Sheldon Brown stated flatly decades ago that there are no such differences, but he could have been wrong, too, I guess.)/
Not frame materials, but tubing thickness and, of course, geometry. I have posted about my 2 steel bikes from the early 90s. One, the Tesch, was the stiffest, most bone jarring bike i have ever ridden. The other, a Landshark, a whippy, wet noodle. Same wheels and tires, huge difference in feel. Anecdotal, yes but that's all I have. I've only had about 15 bikes over the last 40 years.

My aluminum Cannondale was not as stiff as the steel Tesch, but still a very stiff ride, even with the Slice fork. The Tesch frame was definitely a "crit" bike, steep head angle, short wheelbase, and even at 220 pounds I could not flex it, even standing on the pedals while not rolling.

The Landshark was so flexy that more than one person thought I had broken the frame because of how much the BB would swing from side to side while I stood when climbing. I knew it would break if I kept riding it so I sold it to a friend who was 45 pounds lighter than I was. He rode it for 11 years.

Last edited by big john; 01-19-23 at 10:06 AM.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 01-19-23, 10:24 AM
  #458  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 21,960
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6146 Post(s)
Liked 6,120 Times in 3,087 Posts
Originally Posted by Random11 View Post
I've wondered the same thing as the OP. I'm not disagreeing. I'm wondering.

I have two bikes with carbon fiber frames and mechanical Ultegra groupsets that have a new price less than 1/3 of a $14,000 bike. What extra value would I get if I spent another $10,000 to get the $14,000 bike? What differences would I notice on my rides compared to the bikes I have now? One answer is electronic shifting, which I don't particularly want, but that's a difference. What else would I notice in the more expensive bike? That''s a serious question on my part and I don't know the answer because I've never tried a bike like that.

Don't tell me it has higher quality carbon or something like that. Tell me what differences I would notice riding the more expensive bike. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'm saying I don't know what they are, so back to the OP's original question: Where's the value in a bike that expensive? Why is the riding experience better?
As others have said, the differences in these things are slight and in some cases aesthetic. Your bike has Ultegra? Would you suddenly be faster or climb better if you switched to mechanical Dura Ace? Probably not but you would likely notice some differences. On the other hand would you be slower or your bike become sluggish if you switched to 105? A lot of this stuff involves tiny increments or personal preference.

In club riding, the difference in rider ability is bigger than the difference in bikes in most situations. In the mountains one day a friend brought his 28 pound Atlantis and still out climbed other riders who were on much lighter bikes. But he also has some Colnagos, a Sarto, and a new Officine Mattio.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 01-19-23, 10:34 AM
  #459  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,059
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2838 Post(s)
Liked 1,996 Times in 1,248 Posts
Originally Posted by big john View Post
Not frame materials, but tubing thickness and, of course, geometry. I have posted about my 2 steel bikes from the early 90s. One, the Tesch, was the stiffest, most bone jarring bike i have ever ridden. The other, a Landshark, a whippy, wet noodle. Same wheels and tires, huge difference in feel. Anecdotal, yes but that's all I have. I've only had about 15 bikes over the last 40 years.

My aluminum Cannondale was not as stiff as the steel Tesch, but still a very stiff ride, even with the Slice fork. The Tesch frame was definitely a "crit" bike, steep head angle, short wheelbase, and even at 220 pounds I could not flex it, even standing on the pedals while not rolling.

The Landshark was so flexy that more than one person thought I had broken the frame because of how much the BB would swing from side to side while I stood when climbing. I knew it would break if I kept riding it so I sold it to a friend who was 45 pounds lighter than I was. He rode it for 11 years.
John gives the best reason for not putting much stock in most any other rider's (feel) review on frames, tires, saddles, etc unless the other rider is similar in height/weight. One person's trash may be another's treasure. Think about how much different those frames, even in the correct size, are going to feel to a 135-150ish rider, or even a much shorter person with a similar weight. Although, if a person John's size tells you a frame is stiff, you can believe it. What is the highest grade on the stiffness scale?

Last edited by seypat; 01-19-23 at 10:46 AM.
seypat is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 10:47 AM
  #460  
Eric F
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 4,580

Bikes: 2019 Trek Procliber 9.9 SL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2017 Bear Big Rock 1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2810 Post(s)
Liked 4,348 Times in 2,069 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Posts here (including your most recent post, quoted above) have had me starting to doubt myself. Am I somehow wrong---are there indeed real differences in vertical compliance between aluminum and steel frames---differences I can't detect because of some deficiency in my powers of perception? (The late Sheldon Brown stated flatly decades ago that there are no such differences, but he could have been wrong, too, I guess.)

So I just now did a search using something like "measured differences in vertical compliance between aluminum and steel bike frames" and found many results. (The link at the bottom of this post is to one of a number of reports with similar conclusions.)

From what I read in several of those reports, the numbers indicate that there isn't enough vertical compliance in any bike, regardless of frame material, to differentiate it from any other (broadly similar) bike.

Not saying that the people who swear that aluminum bikes rattle your fillings out and so on don't really perceive that. But the numbers would seem to suggest that there's little more than confirmation bias behind those perceptions. Or, if not that, that the bike with the "harsher ride" has a shorter wheelbase.

Whenever yet another discussion of bike comfort versus frame material shows up on Bike Forums, I always immediately look for a mention of the bike's wheelbase as a possible contributory factor. But I rarely or never see any discussions that touch on the significance of a bike's wheelbase for its riding characteristics. The wheelbase seems to be universally thought to be what it is merely as a consequence of other, far more significant geometry decisions. But I think it's the other way around---that it's the chosen wheelbase that determines how the bike rides.

A comparison from my own fleet of bikes (and from my 55 years of riding first pro-level steel and then aluminum and carbon road and track bikes and thinking about this topic):

My Specialized Langster track bike (aluminum frame with large-diameter tubing, aluminum straight-bladed fork with large-diameter tubing, more or less standard road bike racing geometry) has a 98-cm wheelbase.

My Felt TK2 track bike (aluminum frame with large-diameter tubing, carbon straight-bladed fork, standard track racing geometry) has a 94-cm wheelbase.

I don't feel any difference between the bikes in vertical compliance ("comfort"). But the handling of the Felt is hair-raising (except at racing speed). Given that the Felt requires constant attention because of the rapidity with which it reacts to steering input, I don't find riding it on the road comfortable at all. It's spectacularly fast. But "relaxing" is about the last term I'd use for the riding experience.

For what it's worth, I'd describe the ride of the Bianchi steel track bike I rode in the 1980s the same way. The Langster, on the other hand, is my all-time favorite bike. I absolutely love how it rides.

I'll now shut up about this and suggest looking at the information in the linked article.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-imp...han-aluminium/
You can tell me all day long that I can't actually feel a difference, but I'm not going to believe it. What makes it interesting is that comparing my similar-age aluminum and CF bikes, they are opposite of what the typical assumption is about frame materials. I hadn't mentioned that on purpose until now to see if someone else might make that assumption. The aluminum frame is more laterally-compliant and "smoother" sensation than the CF one, and in comparison with other aluminum frames I've had. Furthermore, I had sold this aluminum frame many years ago, during the 15 years I wasn't riding. About a year ago, I got the chance to buy the frame back, and jumped on it. On the first ride after I rebuilt it (with pretty much all the same parts from before), I was reminded of the exact same compliance sensations unique to that frame, more than 15 years since the last time I rode it. What I'm feeling is too clear to me to disbelieve.
Eric F is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 10:49 AM
  #461  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,375

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1566 Post(s)
Liked 1,537 Times in 956 Posts
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
If you buy it, you better love it.
This x1000.

Especially with hobby expenditures. You want to enjoy your hobby. If in a subjective way you buy something you don't wind up liking, it's wasted time-effort-money. You see folks with bikes, bike parts, and cars also that have bought into compromises they are not pleased with. Depending on your income you have to taper expectations on what you can afford to make you happy, but you still should be aware of what you're doing.

I just built out my shed to be a temperature controlled pain cave. I knew while doing it that if when complete there were things I didn't like, I would notice it and resent it every time I go out to use it. So, while it might not be some elite training camp level setup........it is still something I'm proud of and more than willing to go out and enjoy.
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:
Old 01-19-23, 11:02 AM
  #462  
vonfilm 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
vonfilm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 802

Bikes: 73 Super Sport, 86 Tempo, 86 Peloton, 87 Super Sport, 83 Peugeot PFN10, 76 Super Course MK IV, 94 Univega Alpina 5.5

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Thank yo, sir, for agreeing with my point----that point being, that at no time was the pricing of expensive bicycles a mystery to you and that your original question and all your following comments were disingenuous.

You learned all this in business school all those years ago .... and just wanted to pretend to some sort of warped moral superiority because you place different monetary values on some things than do other people.

WeJust a troll thread, folks, nothing to see here ......
You call this a troll thread. I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
Another I learned in business school is to not waste money on depreciating assets.
For the few racers, who could benefit from a state of the art $14,000 bicycle, they should get their sponsor or team to buy it for them. I was speaking with a young bicycle racer yesterday. He had just moved to Austin and w as working at my favorite LBS. He said he had all told about $5.000 in his racing bike and that it was plenty good enough to keep up with his team.

I met a lot of wealthy people during my career. Those that made their own fortunes inevitably wanted a very good deal and struck a hard bargain. A lot of these folks purchased used to avoid a lot of depreciation. Those that inherited wealth would easily part with full price and trade frequently for the latest thing, losing a lot of money with every transaction.
__________________
1973 Schwinn Super Sport
1986 Schwinn Peloton
1976 Raleigh Super Course Mk II(for wife)
1983 Gitane Super Corsa
1991 Trek 750 Multitrack
vonfilm is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:07 AM
  #463  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,568

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2977 Post(s)
Liked 5,178 Times in 2,102 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
You call this a troll thread. I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
I'm sure everyone sleeps better at night knowing you're so concerned about how everyone else spends their money.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:08 AM
  #464  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,673
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6057 Post(s)
Liked 9,170 Times in 3,962 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
You call this a troll thread. I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
I'll make a deal with you: I'll spend my money as I wish, and you can do the same.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-19-23, 11:14 AM
  #465  
Eric F
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 4,580

Bikes: 2019 Trek Procliber 9.9 SL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2017 Bear Big Rock 1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2810 Post(s)
Liked 4,348 Times in 2,069 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
You call this a troll thread. I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
Another I learned in business school is to not waste money on depreciating assets.
For the few racers, who could benefit from a state of the art $14,000 bicycle, they should get their sponsor or team to buy it for them. I was speaking with a young bicycle racer yesterday. He had just moved to Austin and w as working at my favorite LBS. He said he had all told about $5.000 in his racing bike and that it was plenty good enough to keep up with his team.

I met a lot of wealthy people during my career. Those that made their own fortunes inevitably wanted a very good deal and struck a hard bargain. A lot of these folks purchased used to avoid a lot of depreciation. Those that inherited wealth would easily part with full price and trade frequently for the latest thing, losing a lot of money with every transaction.
Why do you care what other people decide to do with their own money? What do you have against the bicycle industry, and why is it different than the multitude of other industries that sell products for the highest price people will pay for them?
Eric F is offline  
Likes For Eric F:
Old 01-19-23, 11:15 AM
  #466  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,059
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2838 Post(s)
Liked 1,996 Times in 1,248 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
You can tell me all day long that I can't actually feel a difference, but I'm not going to believe it. What makes it interesting is that comparing my similar-age aluminum and CF bikes, they are opposite of what the typical assumption is about frame materials. I hadn't mentioned that on purpose until now to see if someone else might make that assumption. The aluminum frame is more laterally-compliant and "smoother" sensation than the CF one, and in comparison with other aluminum frames I've had. Furthermore, I had sold this aluminum frame many years ago, during the 15 years I wasn't riding. About a year ago, I got the chance to buy the frame back, and jumped on it. On the first ride after I rebuilt it (with pretty much all the same parts from before), I was reminded of the exact same compliance sensations unique to that frame, more than 15 years since the last time I rode it. What I'm feeling is too clear to me to disbelieve.
Pretty easy to feel differences in frames even within the same model. Get 3 of the frames in question. One the right size with components that fit. Get one each in the next size up and the next size down. Put the components on there that will put you in the same position as the one with the correct sizing. Give each one a ride and see how they feel. Your weight will be sitting different on each. It will make a difference.
seypat is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:19 AM
  #467  
Eric F
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 4,580

Bikes: 2019 Trek Procliber 9.9 SL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2017 Bear Big Rock 1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2810 Post(s)
Liked 4,348 Times in 2,069 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Pretty easy to feel differences in frames even within the same model. Get 3 of the frames in question. One the right size with components that fit. Get one each in the next size up and the next size down. Put the components on there that will put you in the same position as the one with the correct sizing. Give each one a ride and see how they feel. Your weight will be sitting different on each. It will make a difference.
That's what I would expect.
Eric F is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:21 AM
  #468  
vonfilm 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
vonfilm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 802

Bikes: 73 Super Sport, 86 Tempo, 86 Peloton, 87 Super Sport, 83 Peugeot PFN10, 76 Super Course MK IV, 94 Univega Alpina 5.5

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
Why do you care what other people decide to do with their own money? What do you have against the bicycle industry, and why is it different than the multitude of other industries that sell products for the highest price people will pay for them?
I donít care that much. Iím not losing any sleep over it. I benefitted for many years when people payed what I asked without negotiating or shopping for alternatives. I did learn not to do it myself.

I feel the same way about every product from every industry.

A fool and his money are soon parted.
__________________
1973 Schwinn Super Sport
1986 Schwinn Peloton
1976 Raleigh Super Course Mk II(for wife)
1983 Gitane Super Corsa
1991 Trek 750 Multitrack
vonfilm is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:26 AM
  #469  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,673
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6057 Post(s)
Liked 9,170 Times in 3,962 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
A fool and his money are soon parted.
If I'm such a fool, why do I have so much money?
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-19-23, 11:28 AM
  #470  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 14,486

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7092 Post(s)
Liked 2,510 Times in 1,373 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
No. You are defining what you consider "a good deal" in whatever random and personal terms you choose and trying to tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong.

Unless you resell bicycles, "depreciating value' is meaningless. if you buy bikes and ride them, not deal in them as commodities, there is no "value" beyond which you place upon them, unless they are stolen and need to be appraised for insurance purposes, or unless you use them in your employment and need to write them off.

All my bikes have Zero monetary value. Because that is what a person would pay me for any of them. So ... I should never have bought them, by your logic.

"Value" is not merely financial. You know this.

You are saying, "Why not just buy some sand, and set up a kiddie pool full of salt water in the back yard. Going to the beach is pure financial loss .... it is cost with no financial benefit." Yeah, just do staycations. Forget traveling the world, it is the same planet everywhere. Nothing to be gained by spending all that money for no financial reward.

Look, just be honest. You didn't come here as a crusader for financial justice. You came he to do some fiduciary moral posturing and to complain about what YOU felt to be overpriced luxury goods.

And anyone who has been to business school should know: You are better off overpricing luxury goods, because it raises the perceived value.

No one wants to buy a "cheap" Rolls Royce. Most people don't want to buy luxury items at bargain prices because a large part of buying them is proving that you have the wealth to do so.

Remember when a higher-end MTB brand released a bunch of big-box bikes, trying to capture the whole range of the market? Their mainstream, higher-end sales fell because the brand lost all cachet. Nobody wanted to buy a bike which had the same downtube decals the kid down the street got for his birthday from Walmart.

Seriously, did you Finish business school?

Anyway ... like I said, I can often tell when people have actually had to set prices for their goods or services. And as you should know, when you have a top-tier item you need to price it to suit the few who can afford it, not the people who cannot and instead tell everyone they don't want it anyway.

The phrase is "sour grapes;" the idea is that since you cannot get what you see someone else having, well, it probably sucks anyway .... trying to salve the sting of not having it by denigrating it.

You are

There is nothing wrong with deciding to cap your discretionary budget .... and there is nothing wrong with setting that cap as high as you like.

So, yeah. Be honest. You didn't come here to rescue people from the evils of overspending on bikes. You came here to tell everyone that you were too smart to spend more than $X on a bike and no one else should either.

We All know this already. You denying it doesn't help your credibility nor does it strengthen your points. Just be honest and ... let it go.
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 01-19-23, 11:31 AM
  #471  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 14,486

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7092 Post(s)
Liked 2,510 Times in 1,373 Posts
Lol ... I buy and sell real estate so I can afford my carbon fiber Wunderbikes which i cannot even hope to use withing a tenth of their capabilities .... but man, do I love riding them.

That being said, I love riding all my bikes ... seems somehow as if the amount I paid or the imaginary resale value ... doesn't enter into the actual bike-riding part of things.

Imagine that.
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 01-19-23, 11:31 AM
  #472  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Trakhak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 3,858
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1552 Post(s)
Liked 1,585 Times in 924 Posts
Originally Posted by big john View Post
Not frame materials, but tubing thickness and, of course, geometry. I have posted about my 2 steel bikes from the early 90s. One, the Tesch, was the stiffest, most bone jarring bike i have ever ridden. The other, a Landshark, a whippy, wet noodle. Same wheels and tires, huge difference in feel. Anecdotal, yes but that's all I have. I've only had about 15 bikes over the last 40 years.
I agree that all my bikes feel subtly different to ride. What I can't get past regarding the idea of tube thickness as a significant contributor to variations in vertical compliance is the array of data from measurements of steel, aluminum, and carbon frames. If the measurements show no significant differences among frames built with those very different materials, how can something like tube wall thickness be a factor in vertical compliance? Maybe we're responding to something other than, e.g., differences in tube wall thickness, etc. (such as geometry and bike weight), and mistaking the effects of those factors for differences in vertical compliance.
Trakhak is offline  
Old 01-19-23, 11:32 AM
  #473  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,017
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2543 Post(s)
Liked 2,718 Times in 1,716 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
You call this a troll thread. I am trying to get people to think about not paying exorbitant profits to Manufacturers and their dealers.
Another I learned in business school is to not waste money on depreciating assets.
For the few racers, who could benefit from a state of the art $14,000 bicycle, they should get their sponsor or team to buy it for them. I was speaking with a young bicycle racer yesterday. He had just moved to Austin and w as working at my favorite LBS. He said he had all told about $5.000 in his racing bike and that it was plenty good enough to keep up with his team.

I met a lot of wealthy people during my career. Those that made their own fortunes inevitably wanted a very good deal and struck a hard bargain. A lot of these folks purchased used to avoid a lot of depreciation. Those that inherited wealth would easily part with full price and trade frequently for the latest thing, losing a lot of money with every transaction.
Cycling is a recreational hobby, not an investment strategy. I like to keep those two things separate. When I buy a new bike or a new pair of skis I'm not thinking or caring about depreciation. They are not financial investments.

Your stereotyping of wealthy people is a bit of a cliche to say the least. I also don't get the impression that there is a vast amount of exorbitant profit in bicycle manufacturing or retail. Maybe there are loads of hidden Big Bike billionaires?

It's also of no news to anyone that you can be competitive on a $5k bike. Maybe this is something you have recently discovered?
PeteHski is offline  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 01-19-23, 11:34 AM
  #474  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 5,017
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2543 Post(s)
Liked 2,718 Times in 1,716 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post

A fool and his money are soon parted.
Are you a cliche bot or something?
PeteHski is offline  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 01-19-23, 11:37 AM
  #475  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 21,960
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6146 Post(s)
Liked 6,120 Times in 3,087 Posts
Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post

I met a lot of wealthy people during my career. Those that made their own fortunes inevitably wanted a very good deal and struck a hard bargain. A lot of these folks purchased used to avoid a lot of depreciation. Those that inherited wealth would easily part with full price and trade frequently for the latest thing, losing a lot of money with every transaction.
Riding with road bike clubs in the L.A. area I have met some wealthy people I never would have otherwise. Some of them have been among the warmest, most generous people I've known.
A couple met in the club and one of the wealthier men paid for their wedding and reception. He also spent considerable money on his bikes.
Another offered to pay rent and expenses for a rider who was injured even though he didn't know him very well. This is the guy who sold his bikes when they were near new to other club members for around half price.
He bought a Pinarello of some flavor for about $12K when it first came out. He liked it so much he went back and got another in a different color.

Some people with money are ok with spending some of it. Bicycles are cheap to some people.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.