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How can a $14,000 bicycle possibly be worth the money?

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How can a $14,000 bicycle possibly be worth the money?

Old 01-19-23, 11:42 AM
  #476  
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Originally Posted by vonfilm
I don’t care that much. I’m not losing any sleep over it. I benefitted for many years when people payed what I asked without negotiating or shopping for alternatives. I did learn not to do it myself.

I feel the same way about every product from every industry.

A fool and his money are soon parted.
There are a lot of bike shops around the world that struggle to keep their doors open, but manage to do so every day. If they can sell an occasional $14k bike to a customer that is in the market to buy a $14k bike, more power to them. If that helps keep their employees paid, and the doors open to serve the needs of the local bike community, I'm in favor of it.

Alternately, there is a LBS in my area that specializes in high-end bikes. If you want to spend $10k+ on the latest and greatest European super-bike, that's the shop for you. The owner has done VERY well for himself, financially, by tapping into the high-end niche in a way that is different than other shops in the area, and has a customer base to support it. You might see his success negatively. I just see a successful business...and a ton of happy customers.
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Old 01-19-23, 11:56 AM
  #477  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
I agree that all my bikes feel subtly different to ride. What I can't get past regarding the idea of tube thickness as a significant contributor to variations in vertical compliance is the array of data from measurements of steel, aluminum, and carbon frames. If the measurements show no significant differences among frames built with those very different materials, how can something like tube wall thickness be a factor in vertical compliance? Maybe we're responding to something other than, e.g., differences in tube wall thickness, etc. (such as geometry and bike weight), and mistaking the effects of those factors for differences in vertical compliance.
I'm not sure about whether it's wall thickness or diameter which has the most profound effect on the way a frame feels. Probably a combination of those things, the alloy that is used, and the geometry.
I agree that the differences between most frames will be subtle with some outliers. Whenever there is a frame material thread someone will say a certain material rides a certain way. Obviously there is more to it than material. My Seven is stiff, a very similar ride to my old CAAD5 but I rode my friend's Moots Vamoots and (also titanium) it felt like a spring compared to my bike.
I'm reminded of a thread some years ago where a bf member bought a custom Eriksen ti frame and he hated it. He tried to get them to buy it back and he railed against Eriksen on the forum about how awful it rode.
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Old 01-19-23, 11:56 AM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by vonfilm
A fool and his money are soon parted.
And who anointed you the arbiter of foolishness? Like that Wolf kid, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that other people's choices are any of your business.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolla
And who anointed you the arbiter of foolishness? Like that Wolf kid, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that other people's choices are any of your business.
Feel free to ignore my opinion if you wish.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I'm sure everyone sleeps better at night knowing you're so concerned about how everyone else spends their money.
Thank you for following my thread.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:04 PM
  #481  
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Originally Posted by vonfilm
Feel free to ignore my opinion if you wish.
That's not how discussion forums work - LOL.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
You can tell me all day long that I can't actually feel a difference, but I'm not going to believe it. What makes it interesting is that comparing my similar-age aluminum and CF bikes, they are opposite of what the typical assumption is about frame materials. I hadn't mentioned that on purpose until now to see if someone else might make that assumption. The aluminum frame is more laterally-compliant and "smoother" sensation than the CF one, and in comparison with other aluminum frames I've had. Furthermore, I had sold this aluminum frame many years ago, during the 15 years I wasn't riding. About a year ago, I got the chance to buy the frame back, and jumped on it. On the first ride after I rebuilt it (with pretty much all the same parts from before), I was reminded of the exact same compliance sensations unique to that frame, more than 15 years since the last time I rode it. What I'm feeling is too clear to me to disbelieve.
Bingo. There's always someone out there who will try to tell you you can't actually be sensing the things you sense. I'll go with my own observations. I know that when I'm on the Ritchey I do a lot less searching the bike land for the smoothest line, whereas on the Cannondale it's a constant hunt. The Battaglin - more than the Ritchey but less than the Cannondale. They're all running 25s at 90/95 psi.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:10 PM
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I'm fine with expensive bikes. People with surplus income should feel free to buy nice things. Those who don't have the income, should learn how to build their own nice bikes. The internet has a treasure trove of free information available to anyone wanting to learn. On top of that, honing your body into a lean-n-mean riding machine is easily within anyone's grasp with proper nutrition, fitness and ample rest.

Cycling and photography are very similar. People will dish out the big bucks for the latest $10k Leica rangefinder. Yet someone with a $500 used DSLR/MILC can take the same exact photos! At the end of the day it's not the gear, but the cyclist/photographer that matters!
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Old 01-19-23, 12:11 PM
  #484  
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I was riding with a friend years ago and he mentioned that he had to pay $125K in federal tax that year. "What?, Aren't you retired?" Yes but he sold off a million dollars in stocks because he wanted a new 911 Porsche and was spending part of it on his house. To him, a $14K bicycle would be a very minor expense. Extreme example? Maybe but there are plenty of people for whom $14K is an insignificant sum.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanf2
I'm fine with expensive bikes. People with surplus income should feel free to buy nice things. Those who don't have the income, should learn how to build their own nice bikes.
As I posted, several people in my club have scored high end bikes at half price from one guy selling them when he moves on. Unfortunately for me he is not my size.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:22 PM
  #486  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
I agree that all my bikes feel subtly different to ride. What I can't get past regarding the idea of tube thickness as a significant contributor to variations in vertical compliance is the array of data from measurements of steel, aluminum, and carbon frames. If the measurements show no significant differences among frames built with those very different materials, how can something like tube wall thickness be a factor in vertical compliance? Maybe we're responding to something other than, e.g., differences in tube wall thickness, etc. (such as geometry and bike weight), and mistaking the effects of those factors for differences in vertical compliance.
I hate to continue this fact-free debate ( ) but "vertical compliance" is .... well, a lot of male bovines produce it in quantity.

"Vertical compliance" is a term manufacturers (or engineers) invented to justify spending hours and dollars to make a great frame a little better ... and Chapeau to them. That is what they are paid to do. They needed a term to describe the flexing of The Frame, which was all they could design. Not every manufacturer also produces all their own accessories, so the bars or stem or seat post my be flexing all over the place .... but the idea, reasonable enough (this is all just verbal expressions of butt numbers, we all know that) is that the bottom bracket and chainstays shouldn't be flexing from pedaling forces but should give a little over bumps so as to not wear out the rider.

Cannondale started out (as I understand it) trying to prove that aluminum frames could be as efficient (read "uncomfortable") as the stiffest steel frames and weigh less. Their design philosophy has evolved, but at the time, straight-guage or butted were the options, and C'dale used some sewer-pipe-sized tubes to get the requisite stiffness ... and more.

The idea that Wheelbase is the entire determinant ..... not sure where that comes from. The forks on my Raleigh are a distinct J-shape, as are the forks on my vintage C'dale ... and anyone can see that there is spring designed into them (both steel forks by the way ... it is a C'dale touring model.) But that don't have anything like similar wheelbases, and the steel Raleigh seems to absorb sharp shocks better than the Al C'dale.

On other bikes ... I have two CF Wunderbikes, one with a longer wheelbase than the other .... but both have a lot of exposed CF seatpost. One has hard 23s, one has pretty hard 28s. I have swapped wheel and I can feel some difference .... but also the bars on the short-wheelbase bike flex more .... I have a short-wheelbase Al bike with a CF fork, and it seems to transmit more shock than either of the CF bikes or the Raleigh.... not in a bad way, but it seems to send a signal from every pebble it passes over .... it has a really long seat post but the seatpost is aluminum.

Then I have my Fuji, with 28s and a CF fork/Al frame, a metal seatpost, which is not nearly as long as either the CF bikes or the other A/CF bike ... and it rides like it is on a cushion. Longer wheelbase? Yup ... but it is all in the seatstays, unlike the Raleigh where I ride back further, or the C'dale where the whole frame is just big.

And all of them, the WB is probably withing a centimeter ....

So, "comfort" is not as I can see it attached to any one attribute, and certainly not inherent in any p[articular frame material. (We should all know this because there are both stiff and normal and noodly bikes made of steel or Ti.) A wealth of factors play a part ... but geometry way beyond just wheel base, does seem to me to play a factor.

Whenever someone tells me to ignore my lifetime's experience because they read a study in a magazine (or nowadays, on a website) I like to recall that "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" was meant as a joke. And yes, I have been, can be, and no doubt continue to be just wrong, or uninformed, or misinformed, or not sufficiently informed, about stuff. That is fine. I mean, I recall when cosmologists thought the universe was 18 billion years old ... and the next year, 13, then 14 with some parts being 15-16 billion years old (wtf??) until finally settling on 14.8 .... so far. or like neutrinos ... at first they had no mass, then suddenly there were four varieties and they transformed, then suddenly they had mass .... or the whole (and rather exciting) dark matter/dark energy conundrum. Science is all about learning new stuff, so if someone can really quantify "bicycle comfort" .... awesome.

However ... except at the quantum level,., most stuff seems to make sense when you have t right ... and I posit that even quantum mechanics will be comprehendible when we finally get the whole picture. So again .... yes, I believe my lying eyes most of the time.

Frame Material is not the determinant .... but frame design, how that material is used, and how the whole frame is laid out, seems to be a huge part of the perceived qualities of the ride. And "vertical compliance" is just a phrase ... in fact very few vertical forces act on the bike save gravity .... because the bike is moving forward along a sine curve, most are fore-and-aft forces with a vertical component, as well as a lateral component ... but how often do you actually bounce straight up and down on a bike?

Anyway, I had a fiction-writing assignment, so I came here. have a great whatever you want.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:30 PM
  #487  
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Originally Posted by big john
I was riding with a friend years ago and he mentioned that he had to pay $125K in federal tax that year. "What?, Aren't you retired?" Yes but he sold off a million dollars in stocks because he wanted a new 911 Porsche and was spending part of it on his house. To him, a $14K bicycle would be a very minor expense. Extreme example? Maybe but there are plenty of people for whom $14K is an insignificant sum.
Hey, if I had that kind of money, I'd probably have SEVERAL > $10K bikes.

However, at my age and level of income and wealth, I have found it a lot of fun to try and build the nicest bike I could afford to as cheaply as possible. Last year I bought a 1995 Litespeed Ultimate that was in need of a total rebuild. Cost me $750. I probably spent another $1000 or so building it out, and it's absolutely fantastic! And I get a lot of pride out of having done that, because apart from installing the BB and cranks, every single turn of a wrench was my own, AND by buying a mix of used and new parts I kept the overall cost down.

If I could afford a $14K bike without batting an eye, I don't think I'd have spent all the time and effort building out the Litespeed and I sure wouldn't be so pleased at the cost:benefit ratio I ended up with.

It's the same thing with my other interest, vintage American watches. A big part of the enjoyment is in finding a beautiful old watch for cheap that doesn't run, and cleaning it up and making it work with my own hands. It's the hunt that's fun. If I could just outbid anyone on Ebay, and only buy the most pristine examples, and then have them professionally serviced, I might not even bother collecting watches.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:31 PM
  #488  
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Originally Posted by big john
As I posted, several people in my club have scored high end bikes at half price from one guy selling them when he moves on. Unfortunately for me he is not my size.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I hate to continue this fact-free debate ( ) but "vertical compliance" is .... well, a lot of male bovines produce it in quantity.

"Vertical compliance" is a term manufacturers (or engineers) invented to justify spending hours and dollars to make a great frame a little better ... and Chapeau to them. That is what they are paid to do. They needed a term to describe the flexing of The Frame, which was all they could design. Not every manufacturer also produces all their own accessories, so the bars or stem or seat post my be flexing all over the place .... but the idea, reasonable enough (this is all just verbal expressions of butt numbers, we all know that) is that the bottom bracket and chainstays shouldn't be flexing from pedaling forces but should give a little over bumps so as to not wear out the rider.

Cannondale started out (as I understand it) trying to prove that aluminum frames could be as efficient (read "uncomfortable") as the stiffest steel frames and weigh less. Their design philosophy has evolved, but at the time, straight-guage or butted were the options, and C'dale used some sewer-pipe-sized tubes to get the requisite stiffness ... and more.

The idea that Wheelbase is the entire determinant ..... not sure where that comes from. The forks on my Raleigh are a distinct J-shape, as are the forks on my vintage C'dale ... and anyone can see that there is spring designed into them (both steel forks by the way ... it is a C'dale touring model.) But that don't have anything like similar wheelbases, and the steel Raleigh seems to absorb sharp shocks better than the Al C'dale.

On other bikes ... I have two CF Wunderbikes, one with a longer wheelbase than the other .... but both have a lot of exposed CF seatpost. One has hard 23s, one has pretty hard 28s. I have swapped wheel and I can feel some difference .... but also the bars on the short-wheelbase bike flex more .... I have a short-wheelbase Al bike with a CF fork, and it seems to transmit more shock than either of the CF bikes or the Raleigh.... not in a bad way, but it seems to send a signal from every pebble it passes over .... it has a really long seat post but the seatpost is aluminum.

Then I have my Fuji, with 28s and a CF fork/Al frame, a metal seatpost, which is not nearly as long as either the CF bikes or the other A/CF bike ... and it rides like it is on a cushion. Longer wheelbase? Yup ... but it is all in the seatstays, unlike the Raleigh where I ride back further, or the C'dale where the whole frame is just big.

And all of them, the WB is probably withing a centimeter ....

So, "comfort" is not as I can see it attached to any one attribute, and certainly not inherent in any p[articular frame material. (We should all know this because there are both stiff and normal and noodly bikes made of steel or Ti.) A wealth of factors play a part ... but geometry way beyond just wheel base, does seem to me to play a factor.

Whenever someone tells me to ignore my lifetime's experience because they read a study in a magazine (or nowadays, on a website) I like to recall that "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" was meant as a joke. And yes, I have been, can be, and no doubt continue to be just wrong, or uninformed, or misinformed, or not sufficiently informed, about stuff. That is fine. I mean, I recall when cosmologists thought the universe was 18 billion years old ... and the next year, 13, then 14 with some parts being 15-16 billion years old (wtf??) until finally settling on 14.8 .... so far. or like neutrinos ... at first they had no mass, then suddenly there were four varieties and they transformed, then suddenly they had mass .... or the whole (and rather exciting) dark matter/dark energy conundrum. Science is all about learning new stuff, so if someone can really quantify "bicycle comfort" .... awesome.

However ... except at the quantum level,., most stuff seems to make sense when you have t right ... and I posit that even quantum mechanics will be comprehendible when we finally get the whole picture. So again .... yes, I believe my lying eyes most of the time.

Frame Material is not the determinant .... but frame design, how that material is used, and how the whole frame is laid out, seems to be a huge part of the perceived qualities of the ride. And "vertical compliance" is just a phrase ... in fact very few vertical forces act on the bike save gravity .... because the bike is moving forward along a sine curve, most are fore-and-aft forces with a vertical component, as well as a lateral component ... but how often do you actually bounce straight up and down on a bike?

Anyway, I had a fiction-writing assignment, so I came here. have a great whatever you want.
A bike is simultaneously both comfortable and uncomfortable, until you ride it.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I hate to continue this fact-free debate ( ) but "vertical compliance" is .... well, a lot of male bovines produce it in quantity.

"Vertical compliance" is a term manufacturers (or engineers) invented to justify spending hours and dollars to make a great frame a little better ... and Chapeau to them. That is what they are paid to do. They needed a term to describe the flexing of The Frame, which was all they could design. Not every manufacturer also produces all their own accessories, so the bars or stem or seat post my be flexing all over the place .... but the idea, reasonable enough (this is all just verbal expressions of butt numbers, we all know that) is that the bottom bracket and chainstays shouldn't be flexing from pedaling forces but should give a little over bumps so as to not wear out the rider.

Cannondale started out (as I understand it) trying to prove that aluminum frames could be as efficient (read "uncomfortable") as the stiffest steel frames and weigh less. Their design philosophy has evolved, but at the time, straight-guage or butted were the options, and C'dale used some sewer-pipe-sized tubes to get the requisite stiffness ... and more.

The idea that Wheelbase is the entire determinant ..... not sure where that comes from. The forks on my Raleigh are a distinct J-shape, as are the forks on my vintage C'dale ... and anyone can see that there is spring designed into them (both steel forks by the way ... it is a C'dale touring model.) But that don't have anything like similar wheelbases, and the steel Raleigh seems to absorb sharp shocks better than the Al C'dale.

On other bikes ... I have two CF Wunderbikes, one with a longer wheelbase than the other .... but both have a lot of exposed CF seatpost. One has hard 23s, one has pretty hard 28s. I have swapped wheel and I can feel some difference .... but also the bars on the short-wheelbase bike flex more .... I have a short-wheelbase Al bike with a CF fork, and it seems to transmit more shock than either of the CF bikes or the Raleigh.... not in a bad way, but it seems to send a signal from every pebble it passes over .... it has a really long seat post but the seatpost is aluminum.

Then I have my Fuji, with 28s and a CF fork/Al frame, a metal seatpost, which is not nearly as long as either the CF bikes or the other A/CF bike ... and it rides like it is on a cushion. Longer wheelbase? Yup ... but it is all in the seatstays, unlike the Raleigh where I ride back further, or the C'dale where the whole frame is just big.

And all of them, the WB is probably withing a centimeter ....

So, "comfort" is not as I can see it attached to any one attribute, and certainly not inherent in any p[articular frame material. (We should all know this because there are both stiff and normal and noodly bikes made of steel or Ti.) A wealth of factors play a part ... but geometry way beyond just wheel base, does seem to me to play a factor.

Whenever someone tells me to ignore my lifetime's experience because they read a study in a magazine (or nowadays, on a website) I like to recall that "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" was meant as a joke. And yes, I have been, can be, and no doubt continue to be just wrong, or uninformed, or misinformed, or not sufficiently informed, about stuff. That is fine. I mean, I recall when cosmologists thought the universe was 18 billion years old ... and the next year, 13, then 14 with some parts being 15-16 billion years old (wtf??) until finally settling on 14.8 .... so far. or like neutrinos ... at first they had no mass, then suddenly there were four varieties and they transformed, then suddenly they had mass .... or the whole (and rather exciting) dark matter/dark energy conundrum. Science is all about learning new stuff, so if someone can really quantify "bicycle comfort" .... awesome.

However ... except at the quantum level,., most stuff seems to make sense when you have t right ... and I posit that even quantum mechanics will be comprehendible when we finally get the whole picture. So again .... yes, I believe my lying eyes most of the time.

Frame Material is not the determinant .... but frame design, how that material is used, and how the whole frame is laid out, seems to be a huge part of the perceived qualities of the ride. And "vertical compliance" is just a phrase ... in fact very few vertical forces act on the bike save gravity .... because the bike is moving forward along a sine curve, most are fore-and-aft forces with a vertical component, as well as a lateral component ... but how often do you actually bounce straight up and down on a bike?

Anyway, I had a fiction-writing assignment, so I came here. have a great whatever you want.
Great post; too bad you are preaching to the choir! The next post will be from someone exposing the magical vibration-absorbing qualities of their 25-year-old titanium wonder bike or the mystical ride their 1970s Italian Columbus SL bike provides. Of all the current bicycle frame materials Carbon is by far the easiest to layup in such a fashion to provide the ride characteristics the designer/rider desire. Thanks for the effort, though.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Great post; too bad you are preaching to the choir! The next post will be from someone exposing the magical vibration-absorbing qualities of their 25-year-old titanium wonder bike or the mystical ride their 1970s Italian Columbus SL bike provides. Of all the current bicycle frame materials Carbon is by far the easiest to layup in such a fashion to provide the ride characteristics the designer/rider desire. Thanks for the effort, though.
I don't know about magical vibration absorbing qualities, but my titanium wonder bike is always the one I most want to throw a leg over. Maybe I just hit EXACTLY the perfect fit for me, though most of my other bikes are real damn close to the same set up.

And it's 28, not 25 years old.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
As I posted, several people in my club have scored high end bikes at half price from one guy selling them when he moves on. Unfortunately for me he is not my size.
A few perks is that when people with money sell something, it's usually in excellent/like new condition. In addition when they actually need to buy something used, they don't haggle in price. Well off dentists are my go-to when buying and selling!
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Old 01-19-23, 12:45 PM
  #493  
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Originally Posted by vonfilm
A fool and his money are soon parted.
And thatís the essence of your posts ó you think anyone that spends more money than you is a fool. How arrogant.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanf2
A few perks is that when people with money sell something, it's usually in excellent/like new condition. In addition when they actually need to buy something used, they don't haggle in price. Well off dentists are my go-to when buying and selling!
Funny! My dentist rides an old cf Trek.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
You need better bigger friends.
Actually, one of my friends who is not wealthy offered to sell me his beautiful C-50 in size 65, I think. I probably should have done it but I chickened out. I don't deserve a bike that pretty, anyway.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
Actually, one of my friends who is not wealthy offered to sell me his beautiful C-50 in size 65, I think. I probably should have done it but I chickened out. I don't deserve a bike that pretty, anyway.
You'd only break it, anyway.
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Old 01-19-23, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
You'd only break it, anyway.
That would suck.
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Old 01-19-23, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
A bike is simultaneously both comfortable and uncomfortable, until you ride it.

You ever have one of those days when you feel like you're riding a dead cat?
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Old 01-19-23, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
You ever have one of those days when you feel like you're riding a dead cat?
Werner Heisenberg and Erwin Schrodinger are driving along, and a police car pulls them over. One officer says, "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Heisenberg replies, "No, but I know where I was."

The other officer looks in the trunk and says, "There's cat in a box in here, and it's dead!"

Schrodinger says, "Well, NOW it is!"
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Old 01-19-23, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
You ever have one of those days when you feel like you're riding a dead cat?
Having never ridden a dead cat, I'm not familiar with that sensation, and would be unable to make such a comparison with any degree of accuracy. It's somewhat troublesome that dead cat riding is familiar to you.
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