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actual cost to build a $14,000 bike

Old 01-18-23, 01:38 PM
  #126  
Eric F 
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
The weight difference is substantial.
Build quality is not as refined, with the headset, drop out and bottom bracket not as accurate.
Paint, although nice is not as durable and is fairly thickly applied
Riskier purchase with no warranty to speak of and long lead time

Overall built up with GRX 810 and is a great around-town gravel bike.
Thanks for the info. Based on that, I can see that some people might not find an issue with it, but also why some people would stay away from it. Sounds like you found an appropriate application.
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Old 01-18-23, 04:30 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
More money gets you higher grades of carbon fiber, and a different and more complex layup which, which is done by hand, as well as the engineering and design that allows it to be made. And what are you but 11 gallons of water and a few bucks worth of chemicals?
+1 this. And not just the engineering cost of designing the frame, but also that of the tooling and equipment and procedures used to make it. That said, retail price is usually around double dealer cost.
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Old 01-18-23, 07:16 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
+1 this. And not just the engineering cost of designing the frame, but also that of the tooling and equipment and procedures used to make it. That said, retail price is usually around double dealer cost.
Dealer margin is about 1/3 or less.

All carbon frames are laid up by hand.
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Old 01-18-23, 08:38 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts

It seems that most steel frames of good quality weigh 1400-1800. Yeah, thatís almost certainly measured on a 54, and I know youíre the type to actually weigh the frame rather than go by published numbers.

Possibly a switch up within the brand. I swear that I saw a Rodriguez fan post last year about an approximately 1000gm steel frame. Maybe 1200 in your size.
I can't imagine a steel frame @1000 grams. I heard about a special 52cm Prestige frame @1200 but that's not reality for most of us. I think 1700 is about what Cinelli and Colnago steel frames are. My 62cm Gunnar is about 1800 grams. I think 1400 would be extremely light for a daily driver type steel frame.
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Old 01-18-23, 08:57 PM
  #130  
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My 80's Sannino, very nicely made with Columbus SLX tubing, 54cm, is a little more than 1900g. I have no doubt that there are nice steel frames that are lighter, but I can't imagine nearly half as heavy. It wasn't hard to build it at around 20-21lbs.
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Old 01-18-23, 10:47 PM
  #131  
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I would frame the question differently. How much does it cost to set up and maintain a company that develops state of the art racing bicycles, sponsors racers, markets their products at events around the world, has worldwide distributors, etc. Bicycles are not much different that many other manufactured goods in that the cost of the product itself is just a part of what your paying for.

If you believe a product is superior to others, then you have to expect to pay for the infrastructure that went into its development.
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Old 01-18-23, 11:13 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by big john
I can't imagine a steel frame @1000 grams. I heard about a special 52cm Prestige frame @1200 but that's not reality for most of us. I think 1700 is about what Cinelli and Colnago steel frames are. My 62cm Gunnar is about 1800 grams. I think 1400 would be extremely light for a daily driver type steel frame.
I am not sure.

There was definitely some banter on this site about the ultralight R&E frames.

Possibly a super small one.

Steel really punishes the tall weight conscious people. Iím 5í9 and shrinking and really like my 54cm frames. That 62 you mentioned would have to weigh a lot more, even in thin tapered tubes.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:07 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
I am not sure.

There was definitely some banter on this site about the ultralight R&E frames.

Possibly a super small one.

Steel really punishes the tall weight conscious people. Iím 5í9 and shrinking and really like my 54cm frames. That 62 you mentioned would have to weigh a lot more, even in thin tapered tubes.
It's True Temper OX Platinum tubing, whatever that means. It's actually the third True Temper road bike I've had. I don't think I could ride an ultra light steel bike.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:10 AM
  #134  
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IMHO I can state that as soon as your out the door and put that wheelset on the concrete and half a butt cheek on that saddle , that $14,000 work of art just depreciated to $7,000! As lite weight as it was,it was built solid as a rock.
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Old 01-19-23, 12:43 AM
  #135  
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Not sure how many people here run businesses or need to set prices.

(Pretty sure about which posters don't.)
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Old 01-19-23, 06:44 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Not sure how many people here run businesses or need to set prices.

(Pretty sure about which posters don't.)

Given the identity and obvious trolling agenda of the OP, I find the thread drift into the subject of minimizing the weight of a 62 cm DF bike hilarious and something to be encouraged.

Keep at it, big john ! It's interesting to see how you approach this even for people who ride a 54.
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Old 01-19-23, 07:34 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Dealer margin is about 1/3 or less.

All carbon frames are laid up by hand.
Yes on both counts. I'm not sure where the estimate (bikes costing retailers about half of the selling price) that JohnDThompson gave came from. But I know that 1/3 or less is about right for the era when he was a bike builder at Trek, in the 1980s. Margins have crept up a bit since then, or so I gather. But I find it hard to believe that any dealers are consistently selling bikes at double the dealer cost.
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Old 01-19-23, 07:56 AM
  #138  
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My old midline Fuji Taira has a 4 lbs frame in size 52. That's around 1800 grams.

1000g S3 frame:
https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/s3.html
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Old 01-19-23, 08:08 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts

What I find interesting about your post, is that the bike youíve just described seems a lot better than similarly priced stock bikes from the shop. The wheels, the seatpost, the crank. The mechanical shifting was definitely a weight choice, not price.

The Aethos or whatever doesnít have anything close to that.
It doesn't seem "a lot better" to me. Just very different. An S-works Aethos would be similar money with top-tier components throughout, including latest gen DA Di2 etc. Frameset cost is pretty similar too if you were building it up from scratch.
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Old 01-20-23, 06:23 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
I'm not sure where the estimate (bikes costing retailers about half of the selling price) that JohnDThompson gave came from.
Probably because a lot of the other stuff in the bike shop is keystoned, and he extrapolated to the bikes themselves.
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Old 01-20-23, 07:44 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
What confuses me is there are people who can see through this charade and know of untold riches available through the excessive profits being realized by the few. Yet these same people do nothing to either partake in this easy money nor offer a low cost solution to their fellow cyclists.
I asked about Chinese bikes because that was the closest thing to a nearly free carbon frame that might apply to what you are saying here. But that must not have been what you're talking about.

So what are you talking about? Who should be seeing through the charade and use advanced design techniques to offer cutting edge bikes for cheap? And why would they do that?
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Old 01-20-23, 07:55 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by big john
I can't imagine a steel frame @1000 grams. I heard about a special 52cm Prestige frame @1200 but that's not reality for most of us. I think 1700 is about what Cinelli and Colnago steel frames are. My 62cm Gunnar is about 1800 grams. I think 1400 would be extremely light for a daily driver type steel frame.
I have an 85 Centurion Prestige(Prestige tubing) that weighs under 20lbs stock. DA 7400 components and 32h tubulars. I also have 2 Centurion Turbos. Both are under 21lbs despite having triples/long cage RDs and 28 or 30t cassettes on back. No carbon on any of three. The Prestige is a 54. The Turbos are 56s.
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Old 01-20-23, 08:19 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I have an 85 Centurion Prestige(Prestige tubing) that weighs under 20lbs stock. DA 7400 components and 32h tubulars. I also have 2 Centurion Turbos. Both are under 21lbs despite having triples/long cage RDs and 28 or 30t cassettes on back. No carbon on any of three. The Prestige is a 54. The Turbos are 56s.
I think my Gunnar is about 21 pounds and it has a triple, 36 spoke Open Pros, and a not lightweight Kestrel carbon fork.

I had a Prestige tubed Landshark from 1990. It was light but I never weighed it.

I'm surprised to read that link above about the 1000 gram steel tri frame from 2005.I didn't think it was possible but it was a tiny tri bike for a tiny woman, Had 650 wheels and was her "race day" bike.
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Old 01-20-23, 08:25 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
So what are you talking about? Who should be seeing through the charade and use advanced design techniques to offer cutting edge bikes for cheap? And why would they do that?

I may have misinterpreted, but I read it as sarcasm.
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Old 01-20-23, 09:53 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
I may have misinterpreted, but I read it as sarcasm.
I figured, but I'm not sure to whom or why. Companies make expensive bikes because of the money, not love

You can win the TdF on an open mold bike with Rival. Everything beyond that is diminishing returns and prestige.
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Old 01-20-23, 09:57 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I figured, but I'm not sure to whom or why. Companies make expensive bikes because of the money, not love

You can win the TdF on an open mold bike with Rival. Everything beyond that is diminishing returns and prestige.
And itís been done so often!
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Old 01-20-23, 11:17 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I figured, but I'm not sure to whom or why. Companies make expensive bikes because of the money, not love

You can win the TdF on an open mold bike with Rival. Everything beyond that is diminishing returns and prestige.
Hmmm. Well, a full Rival groupset is 1.2 lbs heavier than a Red groupset. Let's say Tadaj Pogacar climbs Alpe d'Huez at the same power he did in 2022, when his time was 39:12. Now let's add 1.2 lbs to his bike and keep everything else the same. He comes in 13.8 seconds slower. Now, his margin of victory in 2022 was 59 seconds. You just cut that to 45 seconds, and this is only ONE climb on ONE stage out of 21.

So, sure, MAYBE you can win the TdF with Rival, but if everyone else is using Red or Dura Ace or Super Record, you're hobbling yourself, perhaps enough that you're on the second step of the podium and watching somebody else get the yellow jersey. And that's leaving aside the question of the frame.
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Old 01-20-23, 11:58 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Hmmm. Well, a full Rival groupset is 1.2 lbs heavier than a Red groupset. Let's say Tadaj Pogacar climbs Alpe d'Huez at the same power he did in 2022, when his time was 39:12. Now let's add 1.2 lbs to his bike and keep everything else the same. He comes in 13.8 seconds slower. Now, his margin of victory in 2022 was 59 seconds. You just cut that to 45 seconds, and this is only ONE climb on ONE stage out of 21.

So, sure, MAYBE you can win the TdF with Rival, but if everyone else is using Red or Dura Ace or Super Record, you're hobbling yourself, perhaps enough that you're on the second step of the podium and watching somebody else get the yellow jersey. And that's leaving aside the question of the frame.
...or the energy expense of dragging the heavier bike around France at high speed, and up big climbs, for a lot of days in a row, before you even start up L'Alpe.
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Old 01-21-23, 12:00 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I figured, but I'm not sure to whom or why. Companies make expensive bikes because of the money, not love

You can win the TdF on an open mold bike with Rival. Everything beyond that is diminishing returns and prestige.
Sure you can! Go for it. Please let us know how it goes for you.
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Old 01-21-23, 12:11 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Yes on both counts. I'm not sure where the estimate (bikes costing retailers about half of the selling price) that JohnDThompson gave came from. But I know that 1/3 or less is about right for the era when he was a bike builder at Trek, in the 1980s. Margins have crept up a bit since then, or so I gather. But I find it hard to believe that any dealers are consistently selling bikes at double the dealer cost.
I posted this in the other $14k bike thread shortly before it was closed...

I reached out to an old friend who has worked in the bike industry for many decades, and he had some factual information to share with me on this topic. Shop cost for high-end bikes is usually about 25-35% below retail (varies depending on the brand). For a $14k bike, the guess of $5k is a little high, but isn’t far off.

There’s some things to consider, however. Some bikes are delivered mostly assembled, and are fairly quick for the shop to finish. Others are just a frame, fork, and boxes of parts, which takes hours of shop labor time to build (especially with today’s current internal routing). Most shops aren’t selling very many of these bikes, and they may be still sitting in the window past the time when the manufacturer has required payment. It also isn’t rare for shops to offer discounts (10% is typical in my area) to local club/team members, and loyal customers, so the actual sales price might be a good chunk lower than full sticker price.
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