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Parking in Amsterdam

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Parking in Amsterdam

Old 02-07-23, 01:21 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by base2
I appreciate the nuance.
It does make sense.
For a collective action there must, most certainly be a fair degree of cultural pre-disposition towards that action. Cultural inertia, so to speak.

For the record, I am well aware that each European country has it's own diverse & rich culture. I in no way meant to imply cultural homogeneity in land area comparisons between the United States & the continent of Europe. On the contrary, the team work & collaboration between wide & diverse groups is quite remarkable. I can't help but wonder if that is the real stumbling block when Americans say: "We can't do that here."

The "we're too big & wide for non-automobile mobility" argument American defeatists trot out falls a little flat, IMO. Obviously, it can be done.
I didn't mean it that way, ironically the British overlook the cultural difference most of the time too. They are much more classist for example but don't realize to what degree, the Dutch have liked equality for centuries, except in money of course, but we don't talk about what people make. So that's something that keeps a lot of British in the car, while having an opinion on cyclists. Also political/administrative culture is different, the Netherlands is an engineering project more than a country anyway, that helped. There is consensus culture and a multi party system, but also a rebellious culture played it's part in the 70's. Well before cars became a problem government decided against big box stores at the edges of cities, to keep the inner cities lively with shopping, in hindsight that decision turned out to be huge for cycling. Tthe culture of not for profit associations of volunteers helped at lot, and even drinking culture plays a part.

So when in England a council puts down a cycle lane, the conservatives will brand it an expensive socialist hobby and many drivers will agree. I'm not saying obstacles can't be overcome, but culture counts and shouldn't be overlooked.
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Old 02-07-23, 02:23 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by drlogik
Well stated, Stadjer,

I do have a follow-up question: considering The Netherlands is a master at harnessing water along with Venice, how do underground structures stay dry? I know Venice floods periodically, I was there when it did, from high tides, etc. How does your country manage the water for underground facilities and your low proximity to the ocean? From an outside observer it would seem to be a constant battle to stay out front.
Actually the biggest threat to Amsterdam is dryness, then air gets to the wooden poles the houses are build on and they start to rot. A few centimeters of water in the basement regularly is what many Amsterdammers have to deal with and this has to be explained to newcomers, don't put anyting directly on the basement floor. Another issue in mostly slightly dryer area's is 'inklinking' the soil is sinking though compacting, a process ever since it was made dry basically, but influenced by the favourite water height of the farmers. So there are competing interests often, That's all managed by 'waterboards', kind of democratic institutions that go back to the 1100's, but there are plans to give the farmers less of a prominent voice. This is also one reason many cycle paths aren't smooth asphalt, if the soil beneath is sinking the cobblestone cycle path won't crack, they just remove the cobblestones, put some sand on it and put the cobblestones back in, and the important traffic artery is operational again after half a days work. That is actually very important, Dutch infrastructure can't deal with much road works without getting congested somewhere else.

Venice's problem is actually quite different, because it's open to peacefull water, while the Netherlands exists as a country because it has been protected against the rough North Sea and it's storm floods. So the Netherland is protected by huge barriers, dunes, sea dikes and dams. That also has been build since the 1100's at least, but it's only been really safe since the Zuiderzee works in the North in the 1920's/30's and the Deltta works from the 1950's to 2000.
I haven't seen this video but this guy usually does well made, well researched video's. Another issue are the many rivers. Last year there was a flood in the South, near the German and Belgian border but not further down the Meuse. This is because of the 'room for the river' project that came about after more serious flooding in 1995. The Netherlands has stopped pushing rivers into a narrow and straigth bed, but gives them room and there are basins created where people use to live to handle the volume of water, it's still used for grazing and recreation when the water is at a normal level. Germany and Belgium were hit terribly by the flood because they don't have that, but of course just over the border we got a bit of their problem. Also in Rotterdam there are very low lying parking garages, squares and football pitches that simply will flood in case of extreme circumstances. The land is used, but might temporarily out of order, so not with housing are things that could be seriously damaged. Cars left in that garage will be write offs, but that's a small price to pay over many years.

In Venice with a high water level the Mediterranean just flows into the lagoon and then floods the unprotected city. The barrier doesn't seem to work that well. I suspect failing European integration is the cause in the sense that Italians had to do it, instead of calling the Dutch. I'm sorry but they are the most experienced and most expert, whether a ship is stuck in the Suez canal, or Dubai needs artificial islands, or New Orleans needs to be safe from floods, there's a whole Dutch industry to solve issues with water anywhere in the world, it's a business too and I don't know why the Italians didn't trust them with their national treasure. I'm not the least worried about the engineering in the Netherland, the main worry is complacency and administrative mismanagement, untimely maintenance, neglect and maybe some nice houses will have to go because when a dike has to be made higher, it has to become wider too.
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Old 02-13-23, 02:09 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by base2
The US and Europe are geographically similar in size (inso much as it matters in this context.)

The US chose to spread out horizontally basically guaranteeing car dependency. Other places chose human scale infrastructure design & city planning. Making car ownership a choice.

The Netherlands was indistinguishable from any major US metro until around 1960-1970. Then they collectively said: "This sucks" & chose something different. That's right. All of the bicycle & transport you see in pictures of the Netherlands has been built since the 1960's...& they are financially solvent.

I urge you to become familiar with how your parents & grandparents made decisions that limited your freedom, mobility & chained us all to high cost infrastructure maintenance bills for infrastructure that fails at it's primary design purpose: moving people.
I think a lot of European cities were laid out before automobiles were the norm. Iím not saying that in a way that gives US an excuse, just that the timeframe might matter.

And I donít know how decisions were made to rebuild after WW2.

I do know Germany kept the ban on homeschooling put in place by the national socialists.
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Old 02-13-23, 10:44 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Pratt
A bike garage for 7,000 bikes sounds like it could be a long walk to/from where you park your bike, do they have a shuttle service?
Utrecht has a similar parking structure for thousands of bicycles. It has many pedestrian walkways and stairways. The stairway my wife and I used after parking our tandem popped up to surface level right at the entrance to the train station. About a five minute walk. Despite the great number (7,000), bicycles can be stored very efficiently, especially when using multi-level parking structures. The walk will almost always be shorter than when parking a car, as cars take up so much more square footage (meterage?).

So I figured I'd look up Utrecht's storage, assuming it would be smaller than Amsterdam's: Nope! They have capacity for 12,000 bicycles! Woah!

https://www.dezeen.com/2019/09/12/wo...d-architecten/

"Lizzie Crook | 12 September 2019 Leave a comment Ector Hoogstad Architecten has completed a three-storey bicycle park to store 12,656 bikes below Utrecht Central Station in the Netherlands.

The project forms part of a wider redevelopment of the area surrounding the city's railway station, and is designed by Ector Hoogstad Architects to enable cyclists to ride from the street level to the bike store, from which they can quickly access the station.

It is hoped to encourage locals to commute using bikes and public transport instead of cars, and in turn ease congestion in Utrecht and make it a more sustainable city."
And look at that, the world's largest bike parking structure! Who knew? What stupid luck! How funny that we ended up there because we were visiting our daughter studying abroad. Wish I knew then!

So no. What cyclist would even need a shuttle service?
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Old 02-14-23, 12:22 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
So I figured I'd look up Utrecht's storage, assuming it would be smaller than Amsterdam's: Nope! They have capacity for 12,000 bicycles! Woah!
Utrecht is much more a cycling friendly city than Amsterdam, it's probably the biggest good cycling city in the world, but Amsterdam gets the international attention. That's fine for visitors noticing a certain national cycling culture, but city planners and cycling advocates could know better.

Ironically the center of Utrecht was once the showpiece of the new automobile era with a huge building project including an American style mall. The shopping centre is still there but finally most of the damage has been undone, only recently. Except for the old buildings of course, that damage is permanent.

Originally Posted by SkinGriz
I think a lot of European cities were laid out before automobiles were the norm. Iím not saying that in a way that gives US an excuse, just that the timeframe might matter.

And I donít know how decisions were made to rebuild after WW2.
US cities had lots of bicycles and trams too. The time frame does matter though. The physical rebuild is not most important for that, allthough the only Dutch city that needed a real rebuild was Rotterdam and it has been behind on cycling ever since, Hamburg otoh, one of the most flattened German cities, is one of the better cycling cities of Germany. The rebuild in the Netherlands was more a matter of the economy, and then it boomed in the early 60's together with the availabiltiy of affordable cars. The Dutch fell madly in love with the car, there was 'road shoulder tourism' people getting their camping chairs out to watch the highway all day, the first traffic jam was celebrated as a milestone in progress and drew a huge crowd. But because of that short timeframe the clash with cycling, walking and playing (Dutch kids are sent out into the street to play) was obvious, while in the USA the cycling and walking just slipped away hardly noticed I guess. That clash is how the Dutch got to a turning point that early.
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Old 02-15-23, 07:44 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Herzlos
The Dutch are really putting the rest of the world to shame.
Eurocentric much?

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