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Tires- Tube or tubeless?

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Tires- Tube or tubeless?

Old 06-03-23, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Hmmm. You must have Leisesturm on ignore.

HA! No, but I get your point.
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Old 06-03-23, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Since you seem to have missed it, the point is that he’s complaining about not being able to discuss certain topics. He has the ability to start threads on those very topics, but has not. Which sort of calls into question the credibility of his *****ing (“complaining”).
Very assuming of you to assign my gender.
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Old 06-03-23, 11:54 AM
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Old 06-03-23, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I understand your frustration. I have found a few pockets of productive and respectful discussion, but it's less frequent than it should be. That said, there are some folks on here who I genuinely enjoy interacting with, and some of them have changed my opinions on things.

As for sealant, I've only used Orange Seal Endurance, and haven't yet had a reason to look for an alternate. I have nothing for you on11-40 vs. 11-42 with 2x.
I should hope not. Even without bringing up a gear inch calculator I could tell you that any difference would not be perceptible. At the big end of ANY cassette, the tooth jumps are 4T or don't bother. I have an annoying cassette purchased during Covid when I couldn't find anything else. There is a 10T jump to the 34T big cog. That is worth discussing (and changing). A 2T increment at the small end i.e. 11T vs 13T (or 9T) is rather significant, but the industry has established 11T as the top cog of choice. What is there to 'discuss'?

Tubeless otoh there is plenty to discuss, but the aficionados do not want to discuss. I get it. If I had bought in with all the ($$$) hardware necessary, I wouldn't want to now be told I ****** up. I rarely bring it to actual blow by blow rebuttal actually. Check my post history if you don't believe me. It really usually isn't worth talking about. But I see one post in this thread where someone is using light, supple, tubed tires to good effect. I simply can't see that tubeless has provided ANY improvement over a high pressure, high TPI, clincher, mounted on an aero rim. And I don't rub it in but I am not going to be shamed into silence either. If Tubeless is wonderful, prove it. Don't quash discussion. Embrace it. Actually, I'd like to see a discussion as to why tubulars don't get more respect. In many ways tubulars are a more rational alternative to clinchers. Of course tubulars cannot be used safely at ultra low pressures. When did pressure become the enemy? That's another discussion worth having.

Oh, as for 'anti-technology'. Being anti-tubeless is not being anti-technology. That's just deflection. I've not seen (m)any 'steel is real' types here. I'm certainly not one. I've got discs on some bikes. High tech saddles with cut-outs. Wireless computers. Nope, that particular dog won't hunt.
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Old 06-03-23, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I simply can't see that tubeless has provided ANY improvement over a high pressure, high TPI, clincher, mounted on an aero rim.
The main advantage I see is practically zero flats. Low pressures and sealant stop most flats without the rider even noticing and Dynaplugs deal with larger punctures. I've been running road tubeless for over 3 years now and never had to stop by the roadside to change a tube. The one and only flat I've had sealed with a Dynaplug in seconds. I don't even bother carrying a spare tube now. I run 30 mm Conti GP5000S TR at around 60-65 psi on 22 mm internal DT Swiss carbon rims.

What first hand experience do you have with tubeless tyres? Did you try them and it went badly or are you just trying to convince yourself they are inferior?
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Old 06-03-23, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm

At any speed above 12mph air resistance is the totality of what is keeping a cyclist from going any faster. It is a close top speed contest between a speedskater on ice in full tuck, and a road cyclist on level ground in full tuck, but in neither case does it get much faster than ~30mph+ for a trained competition level athlete. Put that same athlete behind a motorpaced wind shield and they are going to hit well over 120mph. So, tubed vs tubeless re: rolling resistance? <chortle> Pinch flats? I don't run tubeless and I've never pinch flatted ever, in decades of daily riding. Comfort? Seriously? When you are hammering for the Strava KOM is comfort really a thing? How 'comfortable' exactly does anyone expect to be on a bicycle?

Bontrager H2 2.0" didn't flat for me until their 5th year of 7d/wk urban riding. In the same riding Kenda Kwest flat 2x/dy! Schwalbe Big Apple, weekly. Schwalbe Big Apple with Mr. Tuffy Liner, bi-monthly (from the liner chafing the tube) Schwalbe Marathon, roughly quarterly. I have some Bontrager H2 Hardcase in 700c x 25 and to some they are garden hose, but you know what? If you beat me with your amazing tubeless set up it won't be because of that. It will be because you are 30y.o. and I am 65. But my tire is NOT going to flat. I mean that. I don't even carry tire levers when I am rocking the Bonties. So your tubeless rig better not even lose 10psi of pressure on challenge day because if it does, it's going to be real close. And if it loses all pressure and you have to go plug it, or put in a tube, or whatever other ju ju y'all's have to do when spit happens, it's all over.
Okay, nevermind my last post. I see this discussion is a waste of time.
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Old 06-03-23, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I should hope not. Even without bringing up a gear inch calculator I could tell you that any difference would not be perceptible. At the big end of ANY cassette, the tooth jumps are 4T or don't bother. I have an annoying cassette purchased during Covid when I couldn't find anything else. There is a 10T jump to the 34T big cog. That is worth discussing (and changing). A 2T increment at the small end i.e. 11T vs 13T (or 9T) is rather significant, but the industry has established 11T as the top cog of choice. What is there to 'discuss'?

Tubeless otoh there is plenty to discuss, but the aficionados do not want to discuss. I get it. If I had bought in with all the ($$$) hardware necessary, I wouldn't want to now be told I ****** up. I rarely bring it to actual blow by blow rebuttal actually. Check my post history if you don't believe me. It really usually isn't worth talking about. But I see one post in this thread where someone is using light, supple, tubed tires to good effect. I simply can't see that tubeless has provided ANY improvement over a high pressure, high TPI, clincher, mounted on an aero rim. And I don't rub it in but I am not going to be shamed into silence either. If Tubeless is wonderful, prove it. Don't quash discussion. Embrace it. Actually, I'd like to see a discussion as to why tubulars don't get more respect. In many ways tubulars are a more rational alternative to clinchers. Of course tubulars cannot be used safely at ultra low pressures. When did pressure become the enemy? That's another discussion worth having.

Oh, as for 'anti-technology'. Being anti-tubeless is not being anti-technology. That's just deflection. I've not seen (m)any 'steel is real' types here. I'm certainly not one. I've got discs on some bikes. High tech saddles with cut-outs. Wireless computers. Nope, that particular dog won't hunt.
You’re missing the point about 11-40 vs 11-42. It was a question about whether a GRX 815 RD can handle the additional range on a 2x drivetrain. Those extra 2 teeth might be too much for the system. Also, for the low-end gearing on a gravel bike, an extra 2 teeth is noticeable when you’re grinding up 15+% grades.

There is nothing to discuss with YOU on tubeless tires. You have clearly made up your mind about them, and are rigidly unwavering in your position. Furthermore, no one is attempting to convince you to change. You’ve made your decision for your reasons, and the way you ride. Meanwhile - as I said before - I’m familiar with my options for tire types. I’ve ridden and raced on tubulars and tubed clinchers. Today, my informed choice is tubeless tires for the way I ride, and for reasons that have been noted repeatedly on this forum. As far as I can tell, we don’t have enough in common for what we want out of a tire for you to tell me my decision is wrong. My decision also has no effect on you, nor is there any reason why I need to justify it.

The “steel is real” folks show up every time carbon fiber frames are discussed.

Last edited by Eric F; 06-03-23 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 06-03-23, 08:59 PM
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I think I've done tubeless wrong all this time. I don't use any fancy expensive gear with it. All my tubeless bikes came with the tubeless ready wheels and tapes already attached. All I've had to do is buy the valves. At 20€ per wheelset I might be able to stomach the cost. Barely.

Of course there's the consumables like sealant (20€ year) and dynaplugs (still waiting to use one). However will I survive with these massive gear costs. I've spent more on inner tubes with bikes riding marathon plusses, as those aren't impervious.

I use our ordinary track pump to seal the tubeless tire on the rim. No compressor or fancy pump needed.
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Old 06-03-23, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
I think I've done tubeless wrong all this time. I don't use any fancy expensive gear with it. All my tubeless bikes came with the tubeless ready wheels and tapes already attached. All I've had to do is buy the valves. At 20€ per wheelset I might be able to stomach the cost. Barely.

Of course there's the consumables like sealant (20€ year) and dynaplugs (still waiting to use one). However will I survive with these massive gear costs. I've spent more on inner tubes with bikes riding marathon plusses, as those aren't impervious.

I use our ordinary track pump to seal the tubeless tire on the rim. No compressor or fancy pump needed.
Yeah, I can get tubeless beads to snap into place with a floor pump 92% of the time (sometimes with a bead that doesn't want to snap, removing the valve core to enable more air flow helps, then after the bead snaps put valve back in and air it up). I had one factory taped wheel with a bad tape job (annoying).
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Old 06-05-23, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Yeah, I can get tubeless beads to snap into place with a floor pump 92% of the time (sometimes with a bead that doesn't want to snap, removing the valve core to enable more air flow helps, then after the bead snaps put valve back in and air it up). I had one factory taped wheel with a bad tape job (annoying).
I've had a few stubborn tyre/rim combos where I struggled to seat them initially with a standard track pump. So I treated myself to a new track pump with an air chamber to pop them on effortlessly. But most of the time I don't really need it. I have never had to re-tape a wheel yet.
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Old 06-12-23, 04:20 AM
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I choose tube
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Old 06-16-23, 05:25 PM
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…I still use tubes, it works for me and I find the 90F/95R psi is comfortable!
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Old 06-16-23, 08:36 PM
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Let me give one more anecdote to show why I will never go back to tubes in tires.

I was near the end of a 40 mile ride, moving along at a steady 18 MPH. I needed to make a turn and as I did I felt the queasy feeling of a tire going flat. <Expletive>

Five miles to go. I rode about half a mile knowing that I had lost a fair bit of pressure and no doubt sealant as well. Now I had to make another turn, and this time as I go around the corner I can tell that I am running quite low on pressure. So I stop, get a CO2 cartridge out, inflate back up to maybe 80 PSI, and ride the rest of the way home.

Turns out that I had a cut in the tread about 5 to 7 mm long, so at the outer limit of the Orange Seal Endurance sealant I am running. Since I probably lost quite a bit of sealant out that slice, I drained the CO2, put 20 cm3 of fresh sealant in the tire, and inflated it back to 95 PSI (compressors are wonderful).

Total time to repair on the road: 1 minute.
Total time to repair at home: maybe 3 minutes.
Did I crash when I flatted going around a corner? Nope.
Could I have limped it home: sure, but why would I?

And there are people who say that tubeless is a hassle?!?!?
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