Originally Posted by VegasJen (Post 22938684)

At the elite level, that 0.01% difference could mean the difference between winning and middle of the pack.

Originally Posted by PeteHski (Post 22938914)

While I do use clipless pedals on my road bikes. I don’t have any illusions about generating any power on the upstroke.

https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique

“Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke. So what hope is there for the rest of us?”

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22938951)

When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)

Originally Posted by Connman (Post 22937298)

I ride a gravel bike on the highways an understood that clipping in would allow to not only push down but to pull up while pedaling.

Originally Posted by Connman (Post 22937340)

Ok, then I believe I'll get some new shoes and clips on my pedals and give it a whirl.

Originally Posted by shelbyfv (Post 22938701)

It must be pretty strong to offset the negatives our contrarian experiences. Think how hard playing the solitary genius must be. Suffering bizarre fit on dubious equipment, all contact points unique, How many among us would do that 19 mile TT with a saddle tilted at 45 degrees? In jorts? On flip flops? The commitment!! And to then receive no appreciation of that genius. :foo:

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22938706)

Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Originally Posted by rsbob (Post 22938711)

Hopefully a last point on the raging debate on flats versus clipless. I

Originally Posted by livedarklions (Post 22938958)

The issue is that it comes at the cost of reduced net efficiency. Looks like it is best for short fast climb and sprints, but bad for endurance. That about right?

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 22938982)

Are you new here?

Originally Posted by shelbyfv (Post 22937565)

If you are interested there is little reason to not try clipless. For me, and apparently others, foot security and having one less thing to think about are the primary benefits. If I had to do a lot of stop and start I might make a different choice.

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22938951)

When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)

• More efficient power transfer and smoother pedalling technique
• Secure foot placement on the pedal which stops your foot sliding off
• Better for climbing up hills where you can take advantage of an upward pedal stroke

Flat pedals vs. clipless pedals | CANYON US

Originally Posted by VegasJen (Post 22939048)

Well, of course, the increase will be significant. If you don't have any kind of foot retention system and are on flat pedals, your upstroke efficiency will be zero. Literally anything is a significant increase.

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22938951)

When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)

• More efficient power transfer and smoother pedalling technique
• Secure foot placement on the pedal which stops your foot sliding off
• Better for climbing up hills where you can take advantage of an upward pedal stroke

Flat pedals vs. clipless pedals | CANYON US

Originally Posted by Connman (Post 22937298)

I ride a gravel bike on the highways an understood that clipping in would allow to not only push down but to pull up while pedaling.

Originally Posted by ofajen (Post 22939162)

Ok, so this is the actual text from the paper abstract about their results, distinct from Canyon’s rewrite, just in case there is a lack of clarity:

”There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.”

Otto

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22938983)

Seems like that's what they are saying. I just wanted to dispute the dogma. The other thing I quoted is just s shpiel from Canyon bikes. I could probably find more but meh.

Originally Posted by PeteHski (Post 22939191)

I only read the Abstract of that study. How did they measure pedal effectiveness and what did they mean by pedal force feedback?

All the data I’ve seen from various studies of power measurement shows varying degrees of negative torque during the upstroke at normal cadence and relatively high power. Pro cyclists are generally better at minimising this negative upstroke torque ie they do a better job of unweighting their leg. If there is data to show someone producing significant positive torque on the upstroke while pedalling at a normal cadence and relatively high power I would love to see it. Maybe the study you linked shows that somewhere?

I ride clipless on my road bike and flats on my mtb. I don’t find my feet lifting up off the pedals during the upstroke when switching from clipless to flats. So I know I’m not producing power on the upstroke. I also rode mtb clipless for many years before switching to flats and I didn’t notice any significant loss in power.

But anyway, there are plenty of other good reasons to use clipless pedals, so definitely worth trying.

Originally Posted by SurferRosa (Post 22937767)

For me, it's about being in the bike, not merely on it. And I know I'm exponentially more safe. I feel faaarrrrrrrr more safe. So I can ride at a much greater speed with great confidence, pedaling or not.

​​​​

Originally Posted by big john (Post 22939177)

Yeah, sorry bout the two links running together there.

Originally Posted by SpeedyBlueBiker (Post 22939284)

I don't know if it will make you faster or not, but I really like being clipped in. I feel that I have more control of the bike and my feet are also in the best position on the pedal to deliver as much power more efficiently.

Originally Posted by Breadfan (Post 22938572)

This is what I did. I bought some fairly inexpensive shoes and the (clip on one side) Shimano PD-M324 pedals and the SH56 cleats. Some say this kind of cleat releases too easy but it hasn't happened to me yet and it has to be more secure than flats. As long as you are keeping pressure on, your feet will stay clipped. Only thing I don't like about any of them is when you need a split second to put your foot down, you'll be using that split second to unclip until it becomes second nature. I haven't hit the deck yet, but I've had a few close calls. I do like the having the flat side available, it works great in heavy traffic if you are starting and stopping a bunch. I may just keep the one sided pedals for a long time. Best of both worlds except for having to flip the pedal to the side you want. If you are racing, I can see where that may be a problem time wise. I really only decided to use the cleats because I have terrible foot posture and it was hurting my knees. This has helped me keep in perfect alignment and it really cut down on the pain. And it's true, you feel like you are one with the bike.