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Should I "Hoard" Mechanical High End Parts?

Old 11-20-23, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Wire tires are also tall tires (taller sidewalls), and they are typically inflated to lower pressure, so they deform and squirm more than a narrower, shorter tire, inflated to a higher pressure.
I haven't tried enough different setups to know this from experience, but wouldn't this depend heavily on rim width? I'm running 32mm tires on 14mm rims, and notice a little of this, but it feels like if I was running wider rims I would have the vertical compliance without as much horizontal squirreliness.
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Old 11-20-23, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
I haven't tried enough different setups to know this from experience, but wouldn't this depend heavily on rim width? I'm running 32mm tires on 14mm rims, and notice a little of this, but it feels like if I was running wider rims I would have the vertical compliance without as much horizontal squirreliness.
Yes, wider rims add support. With the correct width rim you can get the benefits of a wider tire at lower pressure and still have the needed support in corners.

Last edited by Kapusta; 11-20-23 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 11-20-23, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
I haven't tried enough different setups to know this from experience, but wouldn't this depend heavily on rim width? I'm running 32mm tires on 14mm rims, and notice a little of this, but it feels like if I was running wider rims I would have the vertical compliance without as much horizontal squirreliness.
I run 30 mm tyres on 22 mm rims and they have plenty of cornering grip and support at 60 psi. Rock hard narrow tyres at 100+ psi have less grip (especially on poor roads) and break away more suddenly on their limit. That’s just how tyres work in general.

Now considering how inherently pathetic road bike tyres actually are in terms of cornering grip and traction (compared to say motorbike tyres) it makes sense to go as wide as possible without unduly compromising rolling resistance, aero and weight. Modern lightweight carbon aero rims and tyre tech has allowed for considerably wider tyres with very little compromise. That’s why the pros have all but abandoned narrow, high pressure tyres.
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Old 11-20-23, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Wire tires are also tall tires (taller sidewalls), and they are typically inflated to lower pressure, so they deform and squirm more than a narrower, shorter tire, inflated to a higher pressure.
As others have said, this might be the case if you run a wide tire on a narrow rim. With the correct width rims, I'd argue that cornering capabilities increase with wider tires. I'm doing twisty descents on almost a daily basis on my tubeless 30mm Conti 5000s, they handle high speed turns quite well. They corner just as responsively as when I was running 23, 25, and 28mm tires. I'd say that the limiting factor to any of our tires is grip in the turn, something that a wide tire correctly matched to a wider rim, will maximize.
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Old 11-20-23, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
MTB is different. MTBs have gotten magnitudes better every decade for the past 30 years.

This. Modern MTBs are exponentially more capable than even the bikes from a decade ago. It's a new enough sport that I think only in the last 5 years, have they actually discovered what the basic geometry should be. Compared to road bikes, where the formula for a good bike was figured out decades ago. Now we're only seeing incremental improvements in technology and features that consumers desire.

Originally Posted by PeteHski
Road bike evolution is slow and incremental and the engine is human (excluding e-bikes). So objective performance gains are always going to be very marginal, but they do add up over time. UCI regulations also limit potential performance gains to some extent.

But what I personally like about the current crop of bikes is their balance of refinement, comfort, versatility and speed. There is nothing I miss in any of my old bikes. If there was I would probably still ride one.
Yep, I just think of the case of my '01ish Cannondale CAAD5 compared to my '20 Canyon Endurace CF SL. Comparing my power/speed ratio up some of the local climbs, they're both pretty close. However, the Canyon delivers that performance with considerably more comfort. When I first started riding, I would've thought a bike this comfortable would be some slow and heavy fitness bike, not a bike as racy as this.
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Old 11-20-23, 11:44 PM
  #131  
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I have two brevet bikes - a steel Soma Fog Cutter built up in 2019 and a new carbon Trek Domane. Both 11-speed mechanical ultegra, hydro disc, tubeless and typically 32mm.

I won't be setting aside any parts for either. The Soma is QR disc, and 135mm rear triange IIRC, so those parts will be unicorns soon enough. The Trek has its proprietary front and rear isolators, which will likely be hard to find when they need to be replaced.

I love both bikes. The Soma is red with red fenders, chrome square taper IRD crankset; it gets a lot of compliments and I really like the look. The Trek is devoid of style, but dang is it smooth. I rode an admittedly chill PBP this year, rolling in at 89 hours (after an hour chilling in Ramboullet) feeling pretty dang chipper. I credit the Domane's smooth ride for a lot of that, along with my low stress high sleep ride plan. Contrast that to how I felt at the end of the Crater Lake 1200 or upon DNFing 800km into LEL, both on the Soma... no comparison.

I just did a 200k on the Soma this Sunday; the last 3 hours in the rain. I love that bike; it's pretty, the only sound is the tires humming on the pavement, shifts are crisp. Particularly, when the road turns up sharply and I'm in the big ring, quick left tap to small ring simultaneously right tap-tap so it's a slightly lower gear, so smooth and quick. Frickin' love that, you know what I mean?

I'm not hoarding parts because, if I just can't keep either bike rolling because of some unobtanium part, well dang I guess I'll have to buy another bike.

True story: at around 800km at PBP a utility cover sliced my front tire sidewall. I walked back to the control where the mechanic replaced the 32mm GP5k tubeless tire with a 23mm Conti Sport tire, inflated to a proper 100psi. Aside from observing the tire looked like a knife, I can't say I really noticed much difference. Shrug.

Last edited by downtube42; 11-20-23 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 11-21-23, 11:07 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
I haven't tried enough different setups to know this from experience, but wouldn't this (tire height) depend heavily on rim width? I'm running 32mm tires on 14mm rims, and notice a little of this, but it feels like if I was running wider rims I would have the vertical compliance without as much horizontal squirreliness.
Although counterintuitive, it appears that rim width doesn't affect tire height by very much at all, so a wider rim won't make a tire shorter.

Here's a graph of a theoretical 25mm tire on different rim widths, assuming the inflated tire takes on a circular profile (which seems to be a decent "first order" approximation):



Notice that while the tire gets wider as the rim width increases, the tire height barely changes.
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Old 11-21-23, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Although counterintuitive, it appears that rim width doesn't affect tire height by very much at all, so a wider rim won't make a tire shorter.

Here's a graph of a theoretical 25mm tire on different rim widths, assuming the inflated tire takes on a circular profile (which seems to be a decent "first order" approximation):



Notice that while the tire gets wider as the rim width increases, the tire height barely changes.
"This" was referring to squirreliness, not tire height. A wider rim will result in a tire cross section closer to an arch than a lightbulb. That should result in less horizontal flex.
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Old 11-21-23, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
"This" was referring to squirreliness, not tire height. A wider rim will result in a tire cross section closer to an arch than a lightbulb. That should result in less horizontal flex.
OK, I can see that. A wider rigid base means less horizontal deflection.

Thanks.
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Old 11-21-23, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
OK, I can see that. A wider rigid base means less horizontal deflection.

Thanks.
….and it makes a big difference when you go from say 14 mm to 22 mm rims.

Also worth noting that a certain degree of lateral deflection is a positive for grip and handling close to the limit. These are still narrow, relatively high pressure tyres. Road bike tyres are still optimised for speed rather than ultimate cornering potential. If we were racing only downhill on steep technical courses we would be all using much wider tyres with a lot more cornering grip and braking traction.
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Old 11-22-23, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
….and it makes a big difference when you go from say 14 mm to 22 mm rims.

Also worth noting that a certain degree of lateral deflection is a positive for grip and handling close to the limit. These are still narrow, relatively high pressure tyres. Road bike tyres are still optimised for speed rather than ultimate cornering potential. If we were racing only downhill on steep technical courses we would be all using much wider tyres with a lot more cornering grip and braking traction.
Sheldon sez 13mm rims are best for tires up to 25mm, and 21mm for tires up to 50mm. Sheldon knows best.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tyre-sizing.html#wtb
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Old 11-22-23, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
Sheldon sez 13mm rims are best for tires up to 25mm, and 21mm for tires up to 50mm. Sheldon knows best.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tyre-sizing.html#wtb
This info is now terribly obsolete.
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Old 11-22-23, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
Sheldon sez 13mm rims are best for tires up to 25mm, and 21mm for tires up to 50mm. Sheldon knows best.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tyre-sizing.html#wtb
Originally Posted by masi61
This info is now terribly obsolete.
Agreed, but the trend is in the right direction. The goalposts have simply moved in recent years.
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Old 11-25-23, 09:58 PM
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yes, all day long. i did.

last couple years i was buying NOS Mavic Open Pro's through • bike inn/ trade inn out of Spain cheap

sadly they ran out
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Old 11-26-23, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
A past that had lighter weight bikes, faster wheelsets, and more interchangeable components.
I agree and a past where bikes were much easier to fix and spare parts easier to find
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Old 11-26-23, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by georges1
I agree and a past where bikes were much easier to fix and spare parts easier to find
dollar wise

dura ace 11spd 9100 rear der. 200$
dura ace 9200 di2 rear der 850$

we've ben royally hosed, big time. if your not a sponsored pro and have electrical, i kinda' laugh.
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Old 11-26-23, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ChromeChainstay
dollar wise

dura ace 11spd 9100 rear der. 200$
dura ace 9200 di2 rear der 850$

we've ben royally hosed, big time. if your not a sponsored pro and have electrical, i kinda' laugh.
Well I am not not into DI2 nor 11 speeds Dura Ace and12 speeds Dura Ace stuff due to the following problems:
-problematic cable eating shifters
-cranks that are bonded and that break (especially the 11 speeds versions)
-finicky and tricky derailleur adjustment
-not fan of disc brakes
Dura Ace 7800 in new old stock condition can be pretty expensive but at least it didn't and doesn't have those recurring problems. Of course it is a personal choice but I can't justify myself paying big amounts of money for a product that is not fully reliable and durable (of course you mileage may vary with DA9000, 9100 and 9200). That is the same with mountain bikes I stopped with the Shimano Deore XT 780 T/XT 8000/XTR M980 groupsets with 30speeds. Not fan of what shimano produces now regarding their MTB range products. I have seen it today when riding on my local trail I was riding much faster than the guy with XT 12 speeds and have overtaken him twice.
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Old 11-26-23, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ChromeChainstay
dollar wise

dura ace 11spd 9100 rear der. 200$
dura ace 9200 di2 rear der 850$

we've ben royally hosed, big time. if your not a sponsored pro and have electrical, i kinda' laugh.
That's retail aftermarket. The difference on a new bike can be a lot less than that. When a buddy of mine was ordering a MTB this summer, they were offered an upgrade to electronic shifting (from SLX mechanical) for ~$200.
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Old 11-26-23, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by georges1

That is the same with mountain bikes I stopped with the Shimano Deore XT 780 T/XT 8000/XTR M980 groupsets with 30speeds. Not fan of what shimano produces now regarding their MTB range products. I have seen it today when riding on my local trail I was riding much faster than the guy with XT 12 speeds and have overtaken him twice.
Maybe he was just slow rather than because he had XT 12 speed?
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Old 11-26-23, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Maybe he was just slow rather than because he had XT 12 speed?
It's really sad that you would have to point that out to someone.
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Old 11-26-23, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by georges1
I have seen it today when riding on my local trail I was riding much faster than the guy with XT 12 speeds and have overtaken him twice.
This had exactly zero to do with him being on 12 speed. Roughly as relevant as the color of his saddle.
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Old 11-27-23, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
This had exactly zero to do with him being on 12 speed. Roughly as relevant as the color of his saddle.
He was riding a cube with the latest tech and with 29 wheels, so knowing how people classify the 26' wheeled MTBs as a thing of the past. Yet 26' MTB's have plenty of potential, it is not because someone buys the latest bike with the latest bicycle technology that it makes of him a better nor a faster rider.

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Old 11-27-23, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
He was riding a cube with the latest tech and with 29 wheels, so knowing how people classify the 26' wheeled MTBs as a thing of the past. Yet 26' MTB's have plenty of potential, it is not because someone buys the latest bike with the latest bicycle technology that it makes of him a better nor a faster rider.
The same logic works in reverse too. You were not faster because of your older choice of mtb. You were faster in spite of it. Don't try to tell me older mtbs are inherently faster or even as fast as modern mtbs. I've ridden mtb for decades and my trail PRs have all been set on my 2019 Canyon despite me getting older. It can also take on trails that I would have baulked at on my older bikes from the early 2000s.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying your old-school 26" mtb, but the newer bikes are on another level in their performance (even for a rider with modest ability). It's much more dramatic than the evolution of road bikes over the same period. You could argue that modern mtbs make some trails too easy, but my local trails are challenging enough without a handicap.
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Old 11-27-23, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
The same logic works in reverse too. You were not faster because of your older choice of mtb. You were faster in spite of it. Don't try to tell me older mtbs are inherently faster or even as fast as modern mtbs. I've ridden mtb for decades and my trail PRs have all been set on my 2019 Canyon despite me getting older. It can also take on trails that I would have baulked at on my older bikes from the early 2000s.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying your old-school 26" mtb, but the newer bikes are on another level in their performance (even for a rider with modest ability). It's much more dramatic than the evolution of road bikes over the same period. You could argue that modern mtbs make some trails too easy, but my local trails are challenging enough without a handicap.
This^^^
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Old 11-27-23, 10:30 PM
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Modern mountain bikes are infinitely more capable. Downhill courses/trails of 20 years ago, pass for XC nowadays. The DH guys are now constructing lines that are absolutely insane and resemble nothing of the courses from the 90s. Ride technical terrain on a 29'er with modern geometry and it becomes readily apparent why they are so good. Stuff that used to be considered "MTBing" is being done on drop bar gravel bikes. Just because of the wagon wheels and disc brakes, I think even my gravel bike is more capable than the old rigid MTBs I started out on.

Having a front derailleur only gets in the way of proper rear suspension design and I'd argue it is a step backwards in the terrain that I'm riding. I've got plenty of gear range for trail riding with the 1x12 on my bikes...the other benefit, is you can quickly go from 1 end of the cassette to the other, as you rapidly come upon trail obstacles. Dropping a chain/chain suck isn't even on my radar nowadays. Although it isn't totally necessary, the wireless Sram drivetrain on my new XC bike is definitely an improvement over mechanical. I'll definitely appreciate it when I take it racing next season.
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