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"Modern Day 105 is as good as..."

Old 11-13-23, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
Meh - when I made a post about how much better my new aluminum frame is vs my old aluminum frame - BF people called me out and told me I was wrong.
Maybe you were wrong.
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Old 11-13-23, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01

So why you are having a completely different experience is either you got a bad set or that there is something wrong with the installation that you just aren't realizing.
It's not just a Jughed thing. As mentioned in his OP, his mech has had several cracks at it as well. Others have posted that theirs are finicky. I get that you are trying to be purposefully adversarial, as has become an internet standard, but if you are going to do it, get your facts in order.
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Old 11-13-23, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
It's not just a Jughed thing. As mentioned in his OP, his mech has had several cracks at it as well. Others have posted that theirs are finicky. I get that you are trying to be purposefully adversarial, as has become an internet standard, but if you are going to do it, get your facts in order.
How are my facts not in order. Am I not allowed to post that I have had excellent experiences with my 105?

Others made conjecture too. I'm not allowed that either?
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Old 11-13-23, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
The whales may have a different opinion.
In a Walt Kelly Pogo strip, one of the characters told another that he was going to get a rabbit's foot for good luck. The other said, "Didn't do the rabbit much good . . . "
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Old 11-13-23, 03:38 PM
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My observation is that older 9 speed was more stout and 11/12 speed is more precise.

It is tough to argue the Centeron era was better than the current era other than longevity.

John
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Old 11-13-23, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
How are my facts not in order. Am I not allowed to post that I have had excellent experiences with my 105?

Others made conjecture too. I'm not allowed that either?

He and his mechanic have had an issue getting his 105 working properly. He and another poster have commented on the shifters rattling. He and 2 other posters commented on finicky set up.

In your short second paragraph you used the word "you" three times and typed this too "So I think your experience is the outlier data." In less than 20 responses, 4 posters identified some sort of issue with 105. The fact is that it is more than a "you" thing as evidenced by the responses. Couple that with the comment about old cars, and it's obvious that your posts are an effort at disagreement rather than understanding. You aren't alone though, so take comfort in that.

I didn't even mention my issue. I have 105 shifters and an Ultegra derailleur. Neither I or the mech have been able to get it to shift precisely. I get inexplicable hesitation at times. Could be an Ultegra thing though, so let's not include it in the data points.
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Old 11-13-23, 04:51 PM
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My 105 shifts flawlessly since it was initially adjusted on the bikes in 2021 and 2022 when they were new. Haven't had to make any adjustments at all since then.

I still say user error or else something isn't set up right on the bike they are attached to.
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Old 11-13-23, 06:25 PM
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It's not been my experience that people who work in bike shops are necessarily competent. Citing their work as authoritative may not be compelling.

Just say'n
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Old 11-13-23, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
I don't disbelieve that you are having issues. However I put 105 5800 on a Schwinn Paramount frame from the 1990-1991 time period. The shifts were fast and crisp. Rear shifts completed in less than a quarter turn of the crank. When making a front shift, particularly going to the small ring, I could simultaneously shift the rear 2 cogs and not have my cadence interrupted by a poor or slow shift at all.

So why you are having a completely different experience is either you got a bad set or that there is something wrong with the installation that you just aren't realizing. Or on the other end, I must have purchased a perfect example of what 105 5800 should be. I tend to doubt the latter possibility was reserved only for me. So I think your experience is the outlier data.
The bike has been thru three bike shop tune ups, two different shops - one a local race shop. And Iíve often made adjustments on my own.

Itís never all just right. Right now the front mech is slow and stiff, and the rear is skipping.

It is what it is.

I just tuned the ultegra, new bike to meÖ it was all out of sync. Took me 10 min to re tension the cables, adjust the stops and indexing - shifts better than the 105 ever has.
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Old 11-13-23, 07:22 PM
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I know that over the years mfg’s have tried to hide the cables. Not sure if this is the case, but the more a shifting cable runs through a housing, especially where there are bends, the higher the probability that shifting is impacted.

I know lower RD actuation ratios help since more cable is pulled to move an RD from cog to cog; i.e. 10 speed spacing @ 1.4 basically equals the cable pull of 8 speed spacing @ 1.7. But not sure how that translates if there is more friction in the system.

John
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Old 11-13-23, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
The bike has been thru three bike shop tune ups, two different shops - one a local race shop. And Iíve often made adjustments on my own.

Itís never all just right. Right now the front mech is slow and stiff, and the rear is skipping.

It is what it is.

I just tuned the ultegra, new bike to meÖ it was all out of sync. Took me 10 min to re tension the cables, adjust the stops and indexing - shifts better than the 105 ever has.
So it looks like you got a lemon then. Pick any group set you like and people will post both good and bad experiences with it.

If I was having the issues you just described above with 105 then I could say it was worse than pretty much any other group set that was functional! 105 is not inherently as bad as you have experienced. Otherwise everyone would be saying how dire it is.

There is definitely something wrong here, which in itself is not that unique. When I ride in groups it never ceases to amaze me how bad some bikes sound when shifting, regardless of the group set. There are just too many variables involved and sometimes it is difficult to find the problem.
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Old 11-13-23, 08:01 PM
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My first generation 105 drive train (ST-5800, FD-5800, and RD-5800-GS) has shifted flawlessly since I installed the magical R9100 shift cables and housing, which include a special flexible housing (OT-RS900) for the RD loop, two years ago.

Shimano Dura-Ace R9100 Shift Cable Set | Jenson USA

But recently it has started to occasionally miss rear shifts while riding on the small chain ring, so I know that it is almost time to redo the cables again. I will upgrade to FD-R7000 (for quicker front shifts) and RD-6800-SS (for better match to the cassette).
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Old 11-13-23, 09:06 PM
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I'll also add the "Campy" is better post...
When I built my Merlin Ti back in '99 I bought a mix of Campy 9 speed carbon Super Record, Record and Chorus parts...what was available, what I liked more and what I could afford. I rode that group for over 21 years until the rear mech failed. I tried to get parts but couldn't find any that were new and I wasn't going to buy 20 year old parts on ebay...already had them lol.
No idea how many miles...likely well over 100k...but until the rear mech failed it was a perfect shifting machine and I loved it. It sucked that the shifters didn't work with any other era derailleurs else I'd still be on it. It was also the first Campy shifters that were made for hands smaller than Paul Bunyon's...the first I could get a finger on the brake levers from the drops...lol I have small hands...
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Old 11-13-23, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
My 105 5800 shifted every bit as good as it's Ultegra equivalent at the time. The only real difference was weight. It was quite a bit heavier. Never had any of the issues others are complaining about as far as loose and rattling shifters. I think there is a lot of reminiscing for the old days and remembering the stuff as better when it wasn't really. Sure it may have been beefier made in places where it didn't really need to be.

I go to car shows and listen to all the spectators say how much better cars were built back in the day. All I remember about cars back in the day was that I had to work on mine every other weekend. New cars I've had seldom see a shop.
I could only afford POS cars when I started driving back in '73...first car cost me $50.00 and it ran...adjusting the mix on crap carbs...cleaning fouled plugs every week or two...trying to get the springs back on drum brakes when you don't have the correct tool, my knuckles still hurt when I think about it...using the adjusting tool for the drum brakes or better yet driving in reverse and slamming on the brakes to adjust them LOL...adjusting the points, timing, etc. AM radio only LOL, then an FM converter...woohoo big times ! ! ! I could go on but only those of us from that era driving POS cars and similar can feel our pain or really enjoy driving one of today's vehicles...
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Old 11-14-23, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Maybe you were wrong.
This is where the internet and internet people are funny.

I put over 20k miles on a Cdale CAAD 3,

I've currently got 9k on my Trek Emonda ALR.

The ALR is a better frame across the board.

I would say few, very few, if any people in the world, let alone just here on this little slice of the internet, have as much experience comparing those two bikes as I do.

Yet - people with zero experience with the situation, ZERO - still find a way to say I'm wrong - most likely with zero basis for their words...

I started this thread to express my opinion - and to get the predicted results from a few. Thanks for being easily predictable!!
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Old 11-14-23, 07:30 AM
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Irritating Bickering
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Old 11-14-23, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
The bike has been thru three bike shop tune ups, two different shops - one a local race shop. And Iíve often made adjustments on my own.

Itís never all just right. Right now the front mech is slow and stiff, and the rear is skipping.

It is what it is.

I just tuned the ultegra, new bike to meÖ it was all out of sync. Took me 10 min to re tension the cables, adjust the stops and indexing - shifts better than the 105 ever has.
Perhaps the geometry of your frame is out of tolerance with what 105 is designed for. This is/was a real thing with some frames a handful of years ago, for the record.
And it sucks that multiple shops havent been able to fix the issues.

Thing is, I doubt any of those shops would even candidly agree that current 105 is bad. It is flawless for an overwhelming % of users and when it isnt flawless, its almost always pretty easy to see that the reason isnt the level of drivetrain that is at fault since it will commonly be things like cable wear, cassette wear, chain wear, bent RD hanger, bent FD, etc etc. Those things happen to any group.
105 has long been called 'the people's drivetrain' and 'groupset for the people' because it is so well designed, built, and reliable. That you have issues genuinely sucks, but that doesnt mean your specific issues should be expanded to the groupset as a whole.
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Old 11-14-23, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Perhaps the geometry of your frame is out of tolerance with what 105 is designed for. This is/was a real thing with some frames a handful of years ago, for the record.
And it sucks that multiple shops havent been able to fix the issues.

Thing is, I doubt any of those shops would even candidly agree that current 105 is bad. It is flawless for an overwhelming % of users and when it isnt flawless, its almost always pretty easy to see that the reason isnt the level of drivetrain that is at fault since it will commonly be things like cable wear, cassette wear, chain wear, bent RD hanger, bent FD, etc etc. Those things happen to any group.
105 has long been called 'the people's drivetrain' and 'groupset for the people' because it is so well designed, built, and reliable. That you have issues genuinely sucks, but that doesnt mean your specific issues should be expanded to the groupset as a whole.
I'm not saying it's "bad". That is where the thread went... I didn't expand anything to an entire groupset.

I'm just saying, that in my opinion - and using the often heard statement that modern day 105 is as good as older Ultegra - and in my opinion, from my experience - it isn't.
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Old 11-14-23, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
105 has long been called 'the people's drivetrain' and 'groupset for the people' because it is so well designed, built, and reliable.
It's exactly what you would expect from many decades of evolution.
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Old 11-14-23, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
This is where the internet and internet people are funny.
I think it's funny that you're arguing that you have the right to express your opinion, but are getting bent out of shape because some people expressed a different opinion.
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Old 11-14-23, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I think it's funny that you're arguing that you have the right to express your opinion, but are getting bent out of shape because some people expressed a different opinion.
I'm not bent out of shape...
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Old 11-14-23, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It's exactly what you would expect from many decades of evolution.
$5000 19.2# Road bikes?
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Old 11-14-23, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
$5000 19.2# Road bikes?
https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...rahmenfarbe=RD
18.87# 105 mechanical drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $2200

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...nfarbe=BK%2FBU
18.65# 105 di2 drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $2700

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...rahmenfarbe=TQ
18.69# 105 di2 drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $3500
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Old 11-14-23, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...rahmenfarbe=RD
18.87# 105 mechanical drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $2200

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...nfarbe=BK%2FBU
18.65# 105 di2 drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $2700

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road-bi...rahmenfarbe=TQ
18.69# 105 di2 drivetrain carbon frame and fork - $3500
Madone SL 6 Di2 Gen 6 - Trek Bikes
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Old 11-14-23, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jughed
Hold up, are you a witch?! How did you make that bike with 105 cost more than the bike's I posted which have 105?!

Hmm...thinking about this more, I am starting to think not all bikes with the same drivetrain cost the same amount of money. I may need to Google around a bit and find out.
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