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How are the Ebikes and Bikes Lanes in your city?

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How are the Ebikes and Bikes Lanes in your city?

Old 11-23-23, 07:58 AM
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Lots of bike lanes in my area, lots of e-bikes, too. As for bike lanes on streets I'd say they are underused relative to the number of bicycles/e-bikes, as a lot of folks ride on the sidewalks. As for e-bikes there's to be a movement among the government folks to impose some further regulations on riding them as it seems a lot are ridden recklessly and with little regard to the outcome of accidents involving e-bikes (the injuries resemble motorcycle accidents rather than traditional pedal bike accidents). Recklessness seems to be among all age groups, and some of the schools have implemented e-bike policies for on-campus controls.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fishboat
Gosh..a topic that hasn't been flogged to death for the last few days, but certainly the few days before.

I'm think a new sock that signed up to..well..
So how should we proceed - should we get your approval before discussing something?

If it's a topic you've seen before and have no interest in, just ignore it, just like you would do in a bar or real life social setting.

Inserting yourself into a conversation just to demean it and its participants is rude.

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Old 11-23-23, 08:10 AM
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If all topics that had previously been flogged to death got banned then the forum would grind to a halt. Ebikes are still a relatively new topic for flogging.
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Old 11-23-23, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
BF has a dedicated subforum for "e" and other motorized cycles. If you ask nicely a mod may move your thread for you. ebikes Welcome to BF!
OP is asking how e-bikes and scooters interface with how regular bikes use bike lanes. I get that you hate e-bikes (show me on the doll where the e-bike touched you), but don’t try to relegate his thread elsewhere.

OP around here in Silicon Valley e-bikes have not yet taken over, but I hope there are a lot more. In my view, E-bikers have a tendency to be clueless (not everyone by any means) and will need to be protected by better bicycle infrastructure and vehicle culture. As more people transition to e-bikes, they will demand better bike lanes that will benefit the regular cyclists.

2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad
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Old 11-23-23, 05:32 PM
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[QUOTE=LarrySellerz;23080361]OP is asking how e-bikes and scooters interface with how regular bikes use bike lanes. /QUOTE]You got all that from the OP? You never miss an opportunity to embarrass yourself. FWIW, I appreciate all types of motorized vehicles as well as human powered. Don't care much for horses. Hope you scored a free Thanksgiving somewhere!
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Old 11-23-23, 06:13 PM
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[QUOTE=shelbyfv;23080759]
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
OP is asking how e-bikes and scooters interface with how regular bikes use bike lanes. /QUOTE]You got all that from the OP?
Yeah, by using context clues.
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Old 11-24-23, 05:54 AM
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[QUOTE=LarrySellerz;23080789]
Originally Posted by shelbyfv

Yeah, by using context clues.
Yeah, the OP is clearly a "pure" cyclist asking whether or not ebikes (referring to them as motorcycles to exaggerate) are taking over our beloved bike paths. It's not really a question about ebikes other than an attempt to draw attention to them as an unwanted "infestation". I could be wrong of course, but I doubt it.
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Old 11-24-23, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
When I was younger and fitter, I used to love battling the taxis and cars in NYC. These days, not so much. It's been great to see non-car use grow in the city, from the now ubiquitous Citibikes to all manner of electric kick-style scooter, ebikes, one wheels, fixies, and what not. These days, I'd take the chaos of a bike lane every day of the week over battling cars again, as the consequences of colliding with a car are much greater - 93 percent of the bicycle fatalities in 2022 and 2023 occurred on streets with either no bike infrastructure or unprotected bike lanes.

A couple of months ago, we did a ride hosted by Transportation Alternatives, an advocacy group that's been pushing for bike infrastructure in the city for 50 years (and provider of the statistic above). They had a 35 mile loop and a 50 mile loop, all mostly on bike infrastructure. We did the 35 miler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqggzDAfbw

NYC has made a ton of progress but more work still needs to be done. The MUP over the Ed Koch (59th Street) bridge, for example, is much too narrow for the volume of pedestrian and bicycle traffic that it supports. And they're delayed in separating pedestrians from bicycle traffic by opening up another lane. This gives you sense of it; it's much busier during the week.

https://youtube.com/shorts/PZxrVrFjC...zU0_lkLI-VBHw3


I hope to be able to witness the next several decades of bicycle growth there.

EDIT: One place where NYC lags behind Washington DC is bike access to the subway system. DC, with escalators and such, is great. NYC, a much older system still working on accessibility, is a struggle.
I agree that NYC has great cycling infrastructure.

My point was how bad the eBikes have gotten on that infrastructure.

Maybe at some point folks will adapt and learn how to ride them. But from my last couple experiences, we are not there yet.
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Old 11-24-23, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
When I was younger and fitter, I used to love battling the taxis and cars in NYC. These days, not so much. It's been great to see non-car use grow in the city, from the now ubiquitous Citibikes to all manner of electric kick-style scooter, ebikes, one wheels, fixies, and what not. These days, I'd take the chaos of a bike lane every day of the week over battling cars again, as the consequences of colliding with a car are much greater - 93 percent of the bicycle fatalities in 2022 and 2023 occurred on streets with either no bike infrastructure or unprotected bike lanes.

NYC has made a ton of progress but more work still needs to be done. The MUP over the Ed Koch (59th Street) bridge, for example, is much too narrow for the volume of pedestrian and bicycle traffic that it supports. And they're delayed in separating pedestrians from bicycle traffic by opening up another lane. This gives you sense of it; it's much busier during the week.
Took this as we crossed the Ed Koch Bridge on Wed on our way to see the balloons being blown up at around 11am, although I've never done true rush hour I've found the traffic to be moderate in general and even at 4:45 when we got back to the car it wasn't any worse. Only time we had any trouble there was a anti-police violence march going over the bridge that started ahead of us and there wasn't a lot of room for passing with bikes/pedestrians coming the other way. Otherwise, it isn't that bad, there's two spots that narrow on the GW that can get really tight that require more care during busy times.


EDIT: One place where NYC lags behind Washington DC is bike access to the subway system. DC, with escalators and such, is great. NYC, a much older system still working on accessibility, is a struggle
100% this. I didn't realize how bad it was till I was chatting with a friend who's 12yo daughter is wheelchair bound. They don't even bother taking the subway since most stops don't have any form of wheelchair access or elevator and many times the elevator at the end destination isn't working.

My kids loving taking our adventures into the city for rides through Central Park, up to the Met, over to Natural History Museum, Rockefeller Center, Broadway. Between the bus lanes and bike lanes I rarely have to tell the kids to hop on the sidewalk to get through an area.
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Old 11-24-23, 08:38 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by john m flores
The more relevant statistic would be based on miles traveled, not percentage of total road miles.
A statistic which no one collects.

Originally Posted by john m flores
Do you have any data or studies to support your assertions?
Only the fact that every single municipality which has tried a construction-based strategy has watched it fail to save lives, and has subsequently been forced to pivot to alternatives -- which are always decimating motor vehicle traffic volume and speed by making it prohibitively expensive or simply prohibited, and slashing speed limits. Which is, by the way, exactly what NYC is now attempting.

And that's the point, because if you can decimate motor vehicle volume and speed, you didn't need to waste the money, time, and lives on building an infrastructure dedicated to one vehicle type. You could have just done that, and let everyone use the existing infrastructure -- instead of building a new one, and then cramming too many two-wheeler vehicles into it, thereby eliminating its utility.

​​​
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Old 11-24-23, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TC1
Only the fact that every single municipality which has tried a construction-based strategy has watched it fail to save lives, and has subsequently been forced to pivot to alternatives -- which are always decimating motor vehicle traffic volume and speed by making it prohibitively expensive or simply prohibited, and slashing speed limits. Which is, by the way, exactly what NYC is now attempting.​​​
This is not a fact unless you can support it with data.
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Old 11-24-23, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
I agree that NYC has great cycling infrastructure.

My point was how bad the eBikes have gotten on that infrastructure.

Maybe at some point folks will adapt and learn how to ride them. But from my last couple experiences, we are not there yet.
I agree that the lack of training is a big issue. I suspect that a lot of folks (tourists and transplants) come to New York and hop on an electric Citibike thinking, "I used to ride a bicycle as a kid but it's been 10+ years - I got this." and then they suddenly find themselves going 20mph on a 50+ lb bike in a situation that's over their heads. You would hope that transplants get better at it over time but the newb tourist will always be a problem. And they're easy to spot - usually a gaggle of 3-5 of them, eyes wide open from being in the Big Apple. The first two that pass by are confident bicyclists with big smiles on their faces but the last one is wobbling along with a look of mute terror.

I think they just reduced the speed of the electric Citibikes down to 18mph from 20mph. That should help a little bit but I'd love to see them set it up where your speed is restricted to 12mph until you've spent 5 hours on electric Citibikes. That way, tourists will go slower and more experienced locals can travel faster.

Originally Posted by Russ Roth
Took this as we crossed the Ed Koch Bridge on Wed on our way to see the balloons being blown up at around 11am, although I've never done true rush hour I've found the traffic to be moderate in general and even at 4:45 when we got back to the car it wasn't any worse. Only time we had any trouble there was a anti-police violence march going over the bridge that started ahead of us and there wasn't a lot of room for passing with bikes/pedestrians coming the other way. Otherwise, it isn't that bad, there's two spots that narrow on the GW that can get really tight that require more care during busy times.



100% this. I didn't realize how bad it was till I was chatting with a friend who's 12yo daughter is wheelchair bound. They don't even bother taking the subway since most stops don't have any form of wheelchair access or elevator and many times the elevator at the end destination isn't working.

My kids loving taking our adventures into the city for rides through Central Park, up to the Met, over to Natural History Museum, Rockefeller Center, Broadway. Between the bus lanes and bike lanes I rarely have to tell the kids to hop on the sidewalk to get through an area.
That's awesome that your children are growing up riding through the city. That's an experience they'll never forget and they'll be better lifelong cyclists for it!

Regarding the Ed Koch (59th Street) bridge - my girlfriend often walks across the bridge on her way to work and it's a sketchy situation when you have a pedestrian and multiple bikes converging.

And I have a buddy who's an engineer working on a big, multi-year project to improve accessibility on the subway. It's an amazingly complex project because when you dig in NYC you never completely know if there's a pipe or electrical conduit or some other piece of buried infrastructure there. At least you can assured that you won't find the remains of a king, so there's that.
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Old 11-24-23, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
This is not a fact unless you can support it with data.
Yes, it is a fact. If you can find one municipality that has successfully built cyclist safety without being forced to decimate motor vehicle traffic, go ahead and do so. I've made that challenge on many cycling forums for years, and no one has managed to find one yet.

Every single municipality has had the same experience after trying a construction-based approach -- cyclist death rates remained stubbornly high, and of course pedestrians, who are not benefited by cycling infrastructure at all, continued to die even more often. Only then, after wasting time, money, and lives on concrete-and-paint, did they turn to solutions that actually work -- and in every case, those solutions are decimating motor vehicle traffic and increasing law enforcement.
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Old 11-24-23, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TC1
Yes, it is a fact. If you can find one municipality that has successfully built cyclist safety without being forced to decimate motor vehicle traffic, go ahead and do so. I've made that challenge on many cycling forums for years, and no one has managed to find one yet.

Every single municipality has had the same experience after trying a construction-based approach -- cyclist death rates remained stubbornly high, and of course pedestrians, who are not benefited by cycling infrastructure at all, continued to die even more often. Only then, after wasting time, money, and lives on concrete-and-paint, did they turn to solutions that actually work -- and in every case, those solutions are decimating motor vehicle traffic and increasing law enforcement.
The burden of proof is upon you. Saying something is a fact does not make it so.
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Old 11-24-23, 11:02 AM
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No municipality is going to “decimate” auto traffic, nor should it. But NYC did take a lane of the Brooklyn Bridge for a bikeway. You would know that if you had been familiar with the previous arrangement.

When I last did a century to Brooklyn (2021), our club didn’t realize that the lane had opened. The group I was leading was chastised by a pedestrian for riding on the usual bike/ped walkway.

Last edited by indyfabz; 11-24-23 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 11-24-23, 11:12 AM
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In general, they are a nuisance during the warm season. That's what I've taken away from some local townhalls/meetings.
with how poorly maintained the "paved" pedestrian paths are, it'll be interesting to see which is addressed first... the pavement or use of recreational E-Transportation. So far, not a lot of injuries gave happened from E-Bikes riding on the poorly kept surfaces, but it's still early...
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Old 11-24-23, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
The burden of proof is upon you. Saying something is a fact does not make it so.
If you wish to remain comfortable in your fantasy delusion, that's your choice. I am not going to list every municipality that has attempted to build safety, and watched it fail.

If you are even the slightest bit intellectually curious, you can investigate on your own time why, for example, the Netherlands has a population smaller than the New York/Newark MSA, the most extensive cycling infrastructure in the world, and still sees almost 300 cyclist fatalities annually ( 291 last year ) -- and is now resorting to drastically reducing motor vehicle speed limits, since everything else they've done has completely failed.

And no, it's not because the Dutch ride all that much -- Dutch cyclists average about 16 blocks per day, at 7.7 mph, per their official statistics ( which are often inflated, but that's a separate issue ).
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Old 11-24-23, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
No municipality is going to “decimate” auto traffic...
Tell that to almost every large European city.

https://www.politico.eu/article/pont...r-free-future/
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Old 11-24-23, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
Yes, it is a fact. If you can find one municipality that has successfully built cyclist safety without being forced to decimate motor vehicle traffic, go ahead and do so. I've made that challenge on many cycling forums for years, and no one has managed to find one yet.

Every single municipality has had the same experience after trying a construction-based approach -- cyclist death rates remained stubbornly high, and of course pedestrians, who are not benefited by cycling infrastructure at all, continued to die even more often. Only then, after wasting time, money, and lives on concrete-and-paint, did they turn to solutions that actually work -- and in every case, those solutions are decimating motor vehicle traffic and increasing law enforcement.
Irvine, California comes to mind as a Master Planned community that has provided for bike lanes and paths during the initial phase of development.
Of course this was factored into the building boom of the 1970-1980's.
Older cities will always have to add by subtraction.
https://www.irvinestandard.com/2023/...re-pays-off-2/

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Old 11-24-23, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
Tell that to almost every large European city.

https://www.politico.eu/article/pont...r-free-future/
So which major European cities have killed a large percentage of all traffic? That is what decimate means. Historically, it meant to kill one out of ten.

From your own link:

“During the pandemic, cities like London, Paris and Brussels built new bike path networks and made more space for pedestrians. Between 2019 and 2022, the number of low-emissions zones — limiting access to certain types of polluting traffic — in European cities increased by 40 percent, according to the Clean Cities Campaign. And in 2020, over 960 EU cities participated in International Car-Free Day, with dozens later instituting policies banning cars from city centers once a month.

Still, in a majority of these places, cars are deeply ingrained in city life — and in many cases, including in Brussels, huge parts of the city were specifically designed with the car in mind.” (Emphasis added.)

And note the “construction based” approach mentioned. Having a car-free day is like the Great American Smokeout.

What does your odometer read? Mine reads about 25,135 miles after a little over 7.25 years. That’s high for me.

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Old 11-24-23, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
If you wish to remain comfortable in your fantasy delusion, that's your choice. I am not going to list every municipality that has attempted to build safety, and watched it fail.

If you are even the slightest bit intellectually curious, you can investigate on your own time why, for example, the Netherlands has a population smaller than the New York/Newark MSA, the most extensive cycling infrastructure in the world, and still sees almost 300 cyclist fatalities annually ( 291 last year ) -- and is now resorting to drastically reducing motor vehicle speed limits, since everything else they've done has completely failed.

And no, it's not because the Dutch ride all that much -- Dutch cyclists average about 16 blocks per day, at 7.7 mph, per their official statistics ( which are often inflated, but that's a separate issue ).
It's exquisitely rich that you claim that I'm delusional and intellectually uncurious; I've asked you several times for data to prove your point precisely because I am intellectually curious. You've been unable to prove your point so you're now resorting to passive aggressive ad hominem attacks.

I post this chart for others because I'm sure you won't consider it. Stay intellectually incurious, my friend.



Source: https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/defau...ing-europe.pdf
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Old 11-24-23, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BobsPoprad
Fargo-Moorhead area checking in.
What are bike lanes? Our cities guides say we have miles and miles of bike lanes.
In reality, the much improved bike path along the river is nice. Bike lanes, not so much. Slap a painted bike (sign) down on the pavement and call it good.
My rides during the week are almost exclusively on the path. Weekends I'll venture out on to the streets, since I can get out early.
That’s too bad. I have fond memories of riding in ND BITD, including in Fargo and Moorehead. But then again, my city has about twice the population of the entire state of ND.
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Old 11-24-23, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
It's exquisitely rich that you claim that I'm delusional and intellectually uncurious; I've asked you several times for data to prove your point precisely because I am intellectually curious.
Again, every single municipality that has attempted a construction-based solution has seen it fail to reduce cyclist fatalities. Listing them all for you is not an exercise I care to undertake. I've given you one counter example to your claim -- which is the Netherlands -- but you conveniently ignored that entirely, so to what point and purpose should I list dozens more?

I gave you data on New York City, but you didn't like it, so you clamped your hands over your ears and pretended it went away. Repeating that exercise is also not an exercise I care to undertake.

Originally Posted by john m flores
I post this chart for others because I'm sure you won't consider it. Stay intellectually incurious, my friend.
Now adjust it for the ~40% rise in Dutch cyclist fatalities since that chart was created.

And, by the way, Dutch cycling statistics are unreliable anyway, as you should know. Cycling tourism is big business in the Netherlands, and since the proliferation of drug legalization around the world, the Netherlands doesn't have a whole lot else with which to attract tourists. The upshot being, official Dutch cycling statistics are rosy-lensed by an enormous amount, precisely in an attempt to maintain their cycling paradise reputation.

Dutch cycling injuries triple official figures among others on the topic, for the curious.

Last edited by TC1; 11-24-23 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 11-24-23, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
So which major European cities have killed a large percentage of all traffic? That is what decimate means. Historically, it meant to kill one out of ten.
Well make up your mind, since 10% is not a large percentage. More to the point, you can consult your friendly dictionary to determine the meaning of the word "decimate" now. If you want to argue solely about the semantics of my quote, you are both missing the point and wasting our time.

That said, you can google this. A whole raft of cities have drastically reduced both motor vehicle volume and speed, as I said. Among them are most Scandinavian cities, for just a start.


Originally Posted by indyfabz
Still, in a majority of these places, cars are deeply ingrained in city life — and in many cases, including in Brussels, huge parts of the city were specifically designed with the car in mind.” (Emphasis added.)
Did you have a point? Perhaps you are unaware of the trend in Belgium's cyclist safety.

And you might should finish the article, by the way: "The notoriously car-choked region of Brussels is among those planning to undergo drastic changes. A new mobility plan, dubbed Good Move, aims to reduce overall car traffic by 24 percent by the end of the decade." and...

"But ultimately, the trend is clear, Dhont said: EU cities are all moving in the same direction — toward more sustainable urban landscapes with fewer cars."
( both from the earlier citation: https://www.politico.eu/article/pont...r-free-future/ )

Originally Posted by indyfabz
And note the “construction based” approach mentioned. Having a car-free day is like the Great American Smokeout.
And lobbying for dedicated cycling infrastructure is like lobbying for segregated "separate but equal" school systems. We know the latter doesn't work, and doesn't scale, and we know many of the reasons why.


Originally Posted by indyfabz
What does your odometer read? Mine reads about 25,135 miles after a little over 7.25 years. That’s high for me.
Again, did you imagine you made a point here? If my odometer read zero or ten million, I would still be correct on this issue.

Last edited by TC1; 11-24-23 at 04:08 PM. Reason: a little more of the same argument
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Old 11-24-23, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
I post this chart for others because I'm sure you won't consider it. Stay intellectually incurious, my friend.
Source: https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/defau...ing-europe.pdf
I already addressed this chart once, but since I was curious, I looked into a little bit further -- and was not particularly surprised to find that it is junk science.

To wit, the value used for annual cycling fatalities for the Netherlands is 125.4 ( page 13 ). The Netherlands' actual cyclist fatality rate is typically close to double that, per the official Dutch figures, and has never been anywhere close to the lower triple digits, since at least the mid-nineties.

So, John, I'm not exactly sure what this site's policy on spreading fake news is, but if it has one, your post here is in violation of it. Either way, you probably should carefully reconsider spreading this nonsense around, for the sake of your own reputation, if nothing else.
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