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Carbon fiber and sub-freezing temperatures? is there a problem?

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Carbon fiber and sub-freezing temperatures? is there a problem?

Old 11-23-23, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Can you not think of a better way to respond to the post regarding Aerospace vs Bicycle carbon fibre? Very efficient and informative.
Its gobbledygook. The kids are work (physics phds, supposed to be the future leaders and great thinkers) are using it and producing nonsense, its killing the soul of the world
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Old 11-23-23, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Do eeet! Post the vid.


unfortunately, earlier this week we almost exploded our cryo-coffin because cryogen (either liquid nitrogen leaking in or liquid argon and liquid oxygen getting pumped in from a leak to the outside, which was later frozen over with water ice and made a bomb.) We didnít put a pressure relief on the insulating space and sealed it off completely like dummies.

But yeah once we fix it up and add pressure relief (putting a scroll pump on it managed to implode it and it looks fine except for the pictured unistut on the inside) I can maybe take one of my spinergy rev-x wheels sitting in my parents garage and do a dunk test. Canít find a 650 c bike that fits me to put it on except for the tri things and I have a bad back, would be hard to ride.

the previous iterations of these dewars had fiberglass walls, sheets of fiberglass layered with epoxy I think, thatís kind of like carbon fiber. They wouldnít have used that if it failed when cold

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Old 11-23-23, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
In response to accusations about using AI, I clarify that AI serves as a tool to enhance productivity and efficiency in various tasks. It's not a replacement for human capabilities but a complementary technology designed to streamline processes and provide valuable insights. I highlight the practical benefits I've observed, such as improved efficiency and effectiveness in different projects. I take a moment to educate on the nature of AI, emphasizing that it simulates human intelligence in machines. Additionally, I stress the importance of responsible AI deployment and ethical considerations. I welcome further discussion, offering examples of how AI has positively impacted my life and social interactions. Overall, my response aims to be transparent and informative, addressing any misconceptions about the role and implications of AI in my activities.

Can you not think of a better way to respond to the post regarding Aerospace vs Bicycle carbon fibre? Very efficient and informative.
AI isn't a substitute for actual real world experience. That's the problem with social media and forums. People post all types of impressive stuff and make it sound like they know something, when in reality they never experienced what they talking about. They just copy something form internet and pretend like it's their idea or experience. Too many fake people out there today.
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Old 11-23-23, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Its gobbledygook. The kids are work (physics phds, supposed to be the future leaders and great thinkers) are using it and producing nonsense, its killing the soul of the world
Originally Posted by wolfchild
AI isn't a substitute for actual real world experience. That's the problem with social media and forums. People post all types of impressive stuff and make it sound like they know something, when in reality they never experienced what they talking about. They just copy something form internet and pretend like it's their idea or experience. Too many fake people out there today.
I appreciate your perspective on the use of AI in the context of discussing carbon fiber applications in aerospace and bicycles. It seems there's a recognition that the comment aimed to discredit carbon fiber in bicycle frames and components was based on a somewhat unreasonable premise. While AI can certainly contribute valuable insights and information to discussions, it's important to consider the nuances and practical applications of materials like carbon fiber, especially in fields where it has proven successful, such as high-performance bicycles. If you have further thoughts or questions on this topic, feel free to share!
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Old 11-23-23, 06:01 PM
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the largest most powerful jet engine has carbon fiber fan blades
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Old 11-23-23, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
AI isn't a substitute for actual real world experience. That's the problem with social media and forums. People post all types of impressive stuff and make it sound like they know something, when in reality they never experienced what they talking about. They just copy something form internet and pretend like it's their idea or experience. Too many fake people out there today.
I've never experienced the spherical nature of the earth, but I don't think it's fake of me to speak of it as a truth. Experience may be a good teacher, but it's not the only teacher.

Can AI itself have experiences? What does that even mean, having experiences? I guess when AI can do something, then observe the consequences, that's an experience.
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Old 11-23-23, 07:26 PM
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AI programs are a source of information. As with any other source, if used in print it should be appropriately cited. To copy written work created through AI and present it as if were your own writing is no different than copying work created by a human and presenting it as your own. It's dishonest.
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Old 11-23-23, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
Can AI itself have experiences? What does that even mean, having experiences? I guess when AI can do something, then observe the consequences, that's an experience.
Just wait until Skynet becomes sentient.
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Old 11-23-23, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
To copy written work created through AI and present it as if were your own writing is no different than copying work created by a human and presenting it as your own. It's dishonest.
And yet, many bf posters just regurgitate other people's opinions. What's the difference?
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Old 11-23-23, 07:39 PM
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While everyone was arguing aerospace vs. bicycle and questioning AI as the source of a post, the OP's wheels were at a greater risk of theft than freezing to death.
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Old 11-23-23, 07:48 PM
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mannn this thread snowballed down a cold mountain side.

unless the parts are getting impacted in ways that they would not normally be hit with force (a side hit to the frame tubes) I wouldnt see an issue.... The bearings (if any) might not like it out in the cold if they are not moisture free & poorly lubed up.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
I appreciate your perspective on the use of AI in the context of discussing carbon fiber applications in aerospace and bicycles. It seems there's a recognition that the comment aimed to discredit carbon fiber in bicycle frames and components was based on a somewhat unreasonable premise. While AI can certainly contribute valuable insights and information to discussions, it's important to consider the nuances and practical applications of materials like carbon fiber, especially in fields where it has proven successful, such as high-performance bicycles. If you have further thoughts or questions on this topic, feel free to share!
Do you have any expressions of thoughts that are wholly your own? If not, I may be compelled to report your reliance on AI, Data.



Last edited by indyfabz; 11-23-23 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
I've never experienced the spherical nature of the earth, but I don't think it's fake of me to speak of it as a truth. Experience may be a good teacher, but it's not the only teacher.

Can AI itself have experiences? What does that even mean, having experiences? I guess when AI can do something, then observe the consequences, that's an experience.
And yet, somehow the sun comes up in the east. Every day.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
Carbon fiber airplanes with 7-8psi fuselage pressure differential, with carbon fiber components and control surfaces exposed to the force of 600mph winds and fly where the temperature is easily -50f and lower and cycle to where it is +100f several times a day for 25 years or more and don't have any issues.

What conclusions can you infer from the above information about the carbon fiber construction of your wheels?
It's as bad (laughable) as comparing aluminum bikes to aluminum airframes.

2 completely different industries, different stresses, certification standards, manufacturer standards, liabilities, inspections, and regulations.

so... nothing.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Do you have any expressions of thoughts that are wholly your own? If not, I may be compelled to report your reliance on AI, Data.


I have expressed my opinions numerous times when it comes to the ridiculous trolling posts of how Carbon Fiber is a poor choice for bicycle frames and components even though it dominates the industry. In this case I felt the only reasonable response should be automated brainless AI generated because the recipients stance is based an outdated imprinted opinion generated decades ago and unlikely to change.

Sorry everyone, I thought it would be a smart ass way of answering an obvious baiting post. With that I am out and apologize for participating or possibly instigating this train wreck.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 11-23-23 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 11-23-23, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Snail
due to circumstances beyond my control, i am forced to store some of my carbon wheels (campagnolo, zipp, lightbicycle) outside, in wheel bags, in boxes (hopefully by tomorrow), covered in either plastic sheeting, or in soft-shell bicycle bags.
they are under an awning, so hopefully wont get too much snow.
the temps are going down below freezing, and then thawing during the day.
will they be ok?
In short, they will be fine.

Most cheap CF is fine from -20c to 50c with minimal change in strength properties.
For instance: deflection under similar stress in the temperature range is within 5%

Note: all CF in the cycling industry is cheap compared to aerospace and higher technologies.

Anecdotal observation:
There is no pattern of massive failure of CF bicycle components in cold weather and snow bikes are not intentionally manufactured with special cold weather CF.

Don't worry about the cold my friend.

(I'd be more concerned about sticky fingers than the cold)
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Old 11-23-23, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse

Note: all CF in the cycling industry is cheap compared to aerospace and higher technologies.
Interesting. Considering the care, cost (and cost/g) and fuss that people make over high-end carbon framesets, and on the other hand, considering that aerospace carbon is produced by the ton, one would think that there would be a crossover point at the high end.
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Old 11-23-23, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
I have expressed my opinions numerous times when it comes to the ridiculous trolling posts of how Carbon Fiber is a poor choice for bicycle frames and components even though it dominates the industry. In this case I felt the only reasonable response should be automated brainless AI generated because the recipients stance is based an outdated imprinted opinion generated decades ago and unlikely to change.

Sorry everyone, I thought it would be a smart ass way of answering an obvious baiting post. With that I am out and apologize for participating or possibly instigating this train wreck.
Donít always trust your feelings.

No AI was used in the generation of this post.
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Old 11-23-23, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Snail
due to circumstances beyond my control, i am forced to store some of my carbon wheels (campagnolo, zipp, lightbicycle) outside, in wheel bags, in boxes (hopefully by tomorrow), covered in either plastic sheeting, or in soft-shell bicycle bags.
they are under an awning, so hopefully wont get too much snow.
the temps are going down below freezing, and then thawing during the day.
will they be ok?
They should be fine. Your biggest risk is some no goodnik coming over and stealing them if they are left outside.
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Old 11-23-23, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Interesting. Considering the care, cost (and cost/g) and fuss that people make over high-end carbon framesets, and on the other hand, considering that aerospace carbon is produced by the ton, one would think that there would be a crossover point at the high end.
Maybe the top 1%.
Nah, make that top .1%

CF Bike frame fails, it occasionally makes BF.
Rarely results in federal investigation or lawsuit.

Just one CF airplane crashes........
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Old 11-24-23, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
It's as bad (laughable) as comparing aluminum bikes to aluminum airframes.

2 completely different industries, different stresses, certification standards, manufacturer standards, liabilities, inspections, and regulations.

so... nothing.
I am curious as to your professional credentials regarding carbon fiber repair. Taken any classes? I have. For at one time there was an intercompany transfer I was vying for. I got to do all sorts of cutouts and patterns with various grades of pre-preg, and all the stuff of internal structure like honeycomb, mesh screen, etc...All a fair bit more complex from an engineering perspective than a bicycle. None of the raw material is terribly complex or all that much different. There is a fair bit of overlap between the two. I've even repaired my own carbon wheels.

Aircraft make a fair bit of use of 7000 series aluminum. Quite a few bicycles use 7000 series aluminum. Raleigh R300 comes to mind. As does any bike made from "Scandium." Actual premium components are made from 7000 series aluminum too. This is how companies like Extralite can make stems & hubs that weigh considerably less than just expensive "premium" Chris King or White Industries at half the cost of DT Swiss' best offerings.

Of course, most cheap bicycle uses of aluminum are 6000 series because it is cheaper, and not as susceptible to crack propogation. It's absence of strength in comparison to better grades makes it way easier to justify tube thickness which makes for a more durable bicycle. You can find 6000 series aluminum in some secondary structure airplane parts where strength requirements are low and excess cost of higher grade isn't justified. Shelving brackets in the galley or lavatory, for example.

The big cost in aerospace is engineering of the component, the certification of said component, and tracability from cradle to grave. Not the cost of the material itself.

Don't tell me there is no overlap. It's all overlap. All knowledge is derivative. The engineering constraints of a rigid long lasting structure at the absolute minimum weight possible, performing at the highest efficiency achievable at the minimum necessary strength to do the job within acceptable lifecycle safety margins is the same for both applications.

It's almost like people forget how to think. To take what is known about broad concepts to reason themselves through a problem to make a reasonable guess on a specific scenario.

Because airplanes are not bicycles nothing can be anything...That's just ignorant.

Last edited by base2; 11-24-23 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 11-24-23, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by base2
I am curious as to your professional credentials regarding carbon fiber repair. Taken any classes?
Let's just say that I'm in the aeronautical industry and I've taken a few classes and certified at the federal level, and my skills and experience are trusted by a successful company. Said skills include: Structures, materials, manufacturing, integration, certification, testing (destructive and NDT), repair, and post failure investigation.

So your rambling post shoes me that you know the very basics of aluminum alloys and CF, but it's obvious that you are completely unqualified to make the comparison.

To the point:
The cycling world commonly uses the term "Aerospace Quality X" or aviation grade or such non sense

You will never see Boeing say: "We have cycling quality CF in our airplanes"

Seriously, we'll laugh you out the door.

And I'm not wasting my time correcting you on every single materials error you posted.
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Old 11-24-23, 10:38 AM
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TL;DR The temperature swings that carbon fiber composite would be subjected to on a cold night won't harm the structure.

In contrast, the temperature extremes that space hardware experience are more severe than even high altitude aircraft see, and that's when you been to worry about thermal stresses (worrying about that stuff used to be my job).

High temperature swings can produce micro cracks in the resin of carbon composite, usually starting at a void. A crack propagates through the layer until it reaches the next layer with a different fiber orientation. These cracks weaken the laminate structure, but only slightly. They also reduce the stiffness, sometimes significantly.

But fear not, concerned cyclist, as the space temperature range is -196C to 180C.
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Old 11-24-23, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Nothing. Unless you can show the resin, mat, and layups used in aircraft are the same as bicycles.
Still you can infer a lot. When you get down to the level of the things you mention, then you are being more specific, the inferring might change at that time.

There is no requirement for the inferring to be correct. It just has to seem reasonable for the information known at that time
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Old 11-24-23, 10:50 AM
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CrimsonEclipse So, because airplanes are not bicycles nothing can be anything.

Good one.


The Op's question, plainly stated: "Will cold weather hurt my wheels?" Well Crimson, will it? Care to present a known "bicycle carbon" reason why it will? Or will general carbon know-how from the largest use of carbon fiber in industry suffice for the purposes of the question?

Are you going to cop-out behind engineering speak along the lines of: "Due to the absence of specific laboratory performance testing between the ranges of 25 to 32 degrees farenheit, no conclusion can be drawn concerning the performance impact of cold weather on the OP's wheels." Which, while that may be singularly true, and validate your own ego and safeguard the credibility of the license of your particular specialty, is not actually helpful.

...All this from an approach to prompt the OP to reason himself through his own question and arrive at his own conclusion. Sheesh.
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