Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Carbon fiber and sub-freezing temperatures? is there a problem?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Carbon fiber and sub-freezing temperatures? is there a problem?

Old 11-24-23, 10:54 AM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,432
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18495 Post(s)
Liked 15,790 Times in 7,415 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
Larry is AU. I'll let you figure out what that stands for.
Thatís gold, Koyote! Gold!
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 11-24-23, 11:35 AM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,783

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4423 Post(s)
Liked 3,051 Times in 1,888 Posts
Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
Maybe the top 1%.
Nah, make that top .1%

CF Bike frame fails, it occasionally makes BF.
Rarely results in federal investigation or lawsuit.

Just one CF airplane crashes........
I'm not sure that the comparison is apt. For reasons you state, design and manufacturing strategies are different in the two industries. Aircraft are designed to prevent failure at all costs, whereas bike designers push limits. When MvDP breaks the bars of his Canyon during a race, is it because Canyon uses inferior carbon fabrication for its top end components or is it because they push the design limits of the components? You can make any material fail if you make it too thin (or insert some other parameter - aspect ratio, etc.) for the forces it will experience.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 12:50 PM
  #53  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,224

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3525 Post(s)
Liked 3,669 Times in 1,841 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
I'm not sure that the comparison is apt. For reasons you state, design and manufacturing strategies are different in the two industries. Aircraft are designed to prevent failure at all costs, whereas bike designers push limits.
Aircraft design isn't the thing that prevents failures, designing a plane to never fail would make it too heavy. Aircraft maintenance is the thing.

Aircraft are inspected at regular intervals to detect and correct impending failures. Bicycles, not so much.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 11-24-23, 12:58 PM
  #54  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,783

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4423 Post(s)
Liked 3,051 Times in 1,888 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse
aircraft design isn't the only thing that prevents failures, designing a plane to never fail would make it too heavy. Aircraft maintenance is the thing.

Aircraft are inspected at regular intervals to detect and correct impending failures. Bicycles, not so much.
fify
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 11-24-23, 01:05 PM
  #55  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,224

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3525 Post(s)
Liked 3,669 Times in 1,841 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
fify
Fair enough, thanks.

(BTW, Mrs. tm was in aircraft engineering/maintenance for many years. She says those machines fly on paper. Stacks and stacks of paper.)
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 11-24-23, 01:31 PM
  #56  
Cheerfully low end
 
ofajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 1,046 Times in 669 Posts
Originally Posted by wheelreason
So pouring water on a basketball and watching it roll off doesn't prove the earth is not round?...
Interesting to think about the value of the gravitational acceleration, g, for a basketball.

I think itís about 2.8x10**-9 m/s**2. So earthís surface gravity is a mere three billion times greater. (Thatís three thousand million for those in the UK.)

Otto
ofajen is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 01:59 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,783

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4423 Post(s)
Liked 3,051 Times in 1,888 Posts
Originally Posted by ofajen
Interesting to think about the value of the gravitational acceleration, g, for a basketball.

I think itís about 2.8x10**-9 m/s**2. So earthís surface gravity is a mere three billion times greater. (Thatís three thousand million for those in the UK.)

Otto

That's bf. Come for the bicycles. Stay for the nerdistry.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 02:06 PM
  #58  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,138

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10508 Post(s)
Liked 12,059 Times in 6,175 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz
Do eeet! Post the vid.
Just make sure there's a low O2 alarm if you plan on using a lot of LN2 at one time.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 02:07 PM
  #59  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,138

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10508 Post(s)
Liked 12,059 Times in 6,175 Posts
Originally Posted by ofajen
Interesting to think about the value of the gravitational acceleration, g, for a basketball.

I think itís about 2.8x10**-9 m/s**2. So earthís surface gravity is a mere three billion times greater. (Thatís three thousand million for those in the UK.)

Otto
I don't come here for gravity. I come here for levity.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 02:23 PM
  #60  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,013

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3986 Post(s)
Liked 7,441 Times in 2,993 Posts
Originally Posted by ofajen
Interesting to think about the value of the gravitational acceleration, g, for a basketball.

I think itís about 2.8x10**-9 m/s**2. So earthís surface gravity is a mere three billion times greater. (Thatís three thousand million for those in the UK.)

Otto
Originally Posted by genejockey
I don't come here for gravity. I come here for levity.
If we continue down this path, someone is bound to claim that basketballs are only a theory.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 03:16 PM
  #61  
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,138

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10508 Post(s)
Liked 12,059 Times in 6,175 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
If we continue down this path, someone is bound to claim that basketballs are only a theory.
What if the entire universe is moving while the basketball remains motionless?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 11-26-23, 06:14 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
downtube42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,870

Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Focus Mares AL, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Volae Team, Nimbus MUni

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 909 Post(s)
Liked 2,086 Times in 1,093 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
What if the entire universe is moving while the basketball remains motionless?
When everything is moving, I suppose you can pick anything as 0,0,0.
downtube42 is offline  
Old 11-26-23, 06:22 PM
  #63  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,013

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3986 Post(s)
Liked 7,441 Times in 2,993 Posts
Originally Posted by downtube42
When everything is moving, I suppose you can pick anything as 0,0,0.
No, (0,0,0) is wherever my cat is, as the universe is centered on her.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 11-26-23, 07:16 PM
  #64  
Senior Member
 
downtube42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,870

Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Focus Mares AL, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Volae Team, Nimbus MUni

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 909 Post(s)
Liked 2,086 Times in 1,093 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
And yet, somehow the sun comes up in the east. Every day.
So far as I know. I didn't directly experience it before I was born, and tomorrow hasn't happened. If I'm relying on direct experience, anything I think I know from before 1960 is fake. My miniscule bubble of perception has only shown me a tiny fraction of the world.

Well before the Truman show, there was a this gem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Matter_of_Minutes
downtube42 is offline  
Old 11-26-23, 07:22 PM
  #65  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,783

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4423 Post(s)
Liked 3,051 Times in 1,888 Posts
Originally Posted by downtube42
So far as I know. I didn't directly experience it before I was born, and tomorrow hasn't happened. If I'm relying on direct experience, anything I think I know from before 1960 is fake. My miniscule bubble of perception has only shown me a tiny fraction of the world.

Well before the Truman show, there was a this gem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Matter_of_Minutes
Follow that rabbit hole down too far and you'll end up believing that it's all spooky action at a distance.

oh wait...
MinnMan is offline  
Old 11-29-23, 10:46 AM
  #66  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked 502 Times in 298 Posts
All of the arguments, pro and con, about aerospace carbon fiber structures are interesting. I was thinking of sailboats and their spars, many of which are made of CF. Many also sit out on the hard in the winter in the northeast, where it gets cold, and they seem to last.
I guess we will find out next spring, do let us know, or have your surviving next of kin report.
Pratt is offline  
Old 11-29-23, 02:31 PM
  #67  
t2p
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: USA - Southwest PA
Posts: 3,173

Bikes: Cannondale - Gary Fisher - Giant - Litespeed - Schwinn Paramount - Schwinn (lugged steel) - Trek OCLV

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1432 Post(s)
Liked 1,968 Times in 1,125 Posts
Originally Posted by Pratt
All of the arguments, pro and con, about aerospace carbon fiber structures are interesting. I was thinking of sailboats and their spars, many of which are made of CF. Many also sit out on the hard in the winter in the northeast, where it gets cold, and they seem to last.
I guess we will find out next spring, do let us know, or have your surviving next of kin report.



at 40,000 feet the temps can be around minus 60 to minus 70 degrees fahrenheit
t2p is offline  
Old 12-01-23, 07:11 PM
  #68  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 2,011
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2730 Post(s)
Liked 488 Times in 353 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Just make sure there's a low O2 alarm if you plan on using a lot of LN2 at one time.
We think we fixed the cyro coffin, put 6 holes in the bottom so the ďfoam spaceĒ had pressure relief, unless there are voids in the foam that doesnít see the pressure relief. Today we filled it with 180 liters of liquid nitrogen and the oxygen deficiency monitor went from 20.8% to 20.4% so we are fine on that account.

thinking harder, my spinnergy wheels have aluminum rims, and because different materials have different ďcoefficients of thermal expansionĒ I think my wheels might fail and itís not due to the carbon. Donít have like a spare carbon fork or something to test.

I could probably buy or borrow a carbon bottle cage to dunk. Do you guys that is analogous to a frame. Wont risk my bike and donít have any other bike carbon lying around. Would a fork or handlebars be more available, what would be the easiest thing to find for almost free?

also more importantly, if anyone has experience with foam insulated cryogenic dewars, I need help, my foam space saw pressure and by drilling holes in it Iím worried that we have destroyed the dewars efficiency. Canít ask for engineering for support because we might trigger the safety bureaucracy if they find out we created a pressure vessel by mistake.

Last edited by LarrySellerz; 12-01-23 at 07:16 PM.
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 10:27 AM
  #69  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,013

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3986 Post(s)
Liked 7,441 Times in 2,993 Posts
Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Canít ask for engineering for support because we might trigger the safety bureaucracy if they find out we created a pressure vessel by mistake.
Yeah, you certainly don't want to involve people that are trying to prevent you from killing yourself and your co-workers.
tomato coupe is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.