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Titanium “super bikes”

Old 01-29-24, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
One conclusion would be that Lightspeed got bought by a giant consortium and has more advertising and also has plenty of capital to get though lean times.

Lynskey is a small reboot of the original, with no big corporate backer, who needs to build good bikes because the slightest bad publicity could tank the marque.

Also ... "Sales" are a sales technique, an advertising method .... Notice how a lot of major retailers have "sales" on every holiday, every season, every whatever day: "It's our 'Crazy Friday' Sale! Come in and spend money because you think you will save money!"

People like to think they are getting deals. So ... price your goods at a reasonable, substantial price ... say 25% more than the lowest that is feasible for financial stability ... and then do lots off 'discounts" and "sales" of 15-20 % and you are still making more than enough money but people are motivated to buy because "It's on sale"

Sometimes just thinking they are getting a deal is enough to make people pull the trigger.

You'd be surprised how many companies mark up everything a little bit then do "deep discounts" on a few items because one people are in the store and spending, they often buy other things, which are not on sale, and the retailer makes bank.

Nothing but a marketing trick. If you choose to think Lynskey must be a worse bike because of its marketing strategy, I am sure that is more than offset by people who made up their mind because "Oh, look, the frame I wanted just went on sale!"

My justification for saying that? Lynskey is still in business. If Lynskey made bad bikes, social media would be full of complaints and no "sale price" would be low enough. But the company still makes bikes. Further, if Lynskey was desperate and needed to swell stuff cheap to make financial goals (e.g. loans coming due) those sales would not persist once the nut was made, ... unless the :"sale price" was enough to sustain the company.

Here is another hing to consider: Lynskey made Lightspeed. Lightspeed got to be a prominent Ti manufacturer because the builders were so good at making Ti bikes.

Now the people who made Lightspeed, make Lynskeys. it is not like Lynskey hired a bunch of 16-year-olds who couldn't push brooms and handed them welders. This is still the guy and some of the crew which has built great Ti bikes for however many decades.

I see no direct link between sales strategy and bike quality here. if you do, shop accordingly. I know that I looked at Lynskey frames for a while, and saw the frequent sales ... all I thought was, "If I am going to buy one, I will wait for the next sale."
I realize the history of the brands and realize that Lynskey is definitely more of the 'mom and pop' company than Lightspeed is. I said "you can draw your own conclusions" for a reason, and yours is plenty valid. There are two ways of looking at companies with a lot of sales, discounts, etc. Your viewpoint is one of them. Everyone has their own marketing strategies, but companies with constant sales can have a certain perception or reputation based on that. I'm not saying it's good or bad. Seems like I struck a nerve, but that wasn't my intention.
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Old 01-29-24, 01:37 PM
  #102  
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You struck my Marketing nerve, not my Cycling nerve ... no offense taken.
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Old 01-29-24, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by boomer58
Thank you 13ollocks. I know this is just an opinion but being Litespeed is or was owned by ABG and is probably an investment group and Lynskey being a family owned operation, ( and here goes the opinion part ) which is considered the better bike for the money ?
I have a 96 Litespeed (Lynskey era). In 2020 we bought two very similar bike frames: Lynskey GR300 and Litespeed Watia. Both compare very favorably in quality - to my eyes - to the 96 Litespeed and to each other, in terms of weld quality. The new frames have different design decisions in terms of bottom bracket and head set standards. The GR300 has a threaded BB and an integrated headset. The Watia has a press fit BB and a press in headset. The Lynskey was a bit heavier but also a bit cheaper. The Litespeed was a bit lighter, but a bit more expensive. There are also some slight differnces tube shapes, and geometry.

All or some of these differences may affect your choice, but IMHO, none are game changers. Both bikes seem to be high quality at a good price point for a ti bike.
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Old 01-29-24, 03:04 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
(snip)

Also ... "Sales" are a sales technique, an advertising method .... Notice how a lot of major retailers have "sales" on every holiday, every season, every whatever day: "It's our 'Crazy Friday' Sale! Come in and spend money because you think you will save money!"

(snip)
I'm waiting for "Crazy Eddie Merckx!!! He's practically giving it all away!!!"

EDIT: (This will be more meaningful to anyone who lived within range of NYC area TV stations BITD)
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Old 01-29-24, 03:49 PM
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^ Particualrly with the advent of electric bikes and electronic shifting .....
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Old 01-29-24, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I'm waiting for "Crazy Eddie Merckx!!! He's practically giving it all away!!!"

EDIT: (This will be more meaningful to anyone who lived within range of NYC area TV stations BITD)
“Our prices are INSANE!”

Is he still in jail?
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Old 01-29-24, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
“Our prices are INSANE!”

Is he still in jail?
I don't know. We had our own version out here - "MATTHEWS! 5400 Mission Street, top of the hill, Daly City!" which gave out really ****** bikes with many purchases. They even come up periodically over in C&V - "Hey, is this Firenze bike any good?" He - Stephen Matthew David - ended up going to jail, too. Funny thing - I worked with his son years ago. The son was a cyclist. Didn't ride Daddy's POS bikes, though.
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Old 01-29-24, 05:22 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I'm waiting for "Crazy Eddie Merckx!!! He's practically giving it all away!!!"

EDIT: (This will be more meaningful to anyone who lived within range of NYC area TV stations BITD)
I'm still looking for a mattress store that doesn't have a giant "SALE" sign in the window. As far as I can tell, mattresses are always on sale. Always.
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Old 01-29-24, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I'm still looking for a mattress store that doesn't have a giant "SALE" sign in the window. As far as I can tell, mattresses are always on sale. Always.
Only suckers pay retail for a mattress.
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Old 01-29-24, 05:38 PM
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Lol I think Firenze was a Sears brand ... OI owned a pair of Firenze rigid MTBs when I was in my "Plenty of free bikes in the garbage" phase. Nice little bikes but not up to hardcore daily urban commuting.
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Old 01-29-24, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 13ollocks
Litespeed was started by David Lynskey back in the…80s? The Lynskeys were already in the Ti fabrication business for industrial applications, and the story goes that David L, a runner, looked for a decent bike while recovering from injury, couldn’t find anything he liked, so took a swing a building his own in Ti. The bikes took off and the rest is history. The company bought, or was bought by (have heard different versions), ABG in 1999, with a 5-year non-compete clause. When the clause expired, the Lynskeys started building Ti again under their own name. Both the original Litespeed factory and the newer Lynskey factory are based in Chattanooga
Litespeed was sold to AGB, who by the way has trouble with honoring warranties, but I digress, the Lynskey sold the business when their dad and founder died, a decision I wonder if they regret doing?

David Lynskey was a triathlete, not just a runner, but he did have to stop running due to a knee injury.

My understanding was that Lynskey was created after some sort of feud occured between Lynskey and the owners of AGB, so Lynskey put on his fighting gloves and went after them with more competition, which hasn't seemed to hurt Litespeed any.


I can't find sales reports to see who sells the most bikes.
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Old 01-29-24, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by boomer58
Thank you 13ollocks. I know this is just an opinion but being Litespeed is or was owned by ABG and is probably an investment group and Lynskey being a family owned operation, ( and here goes the opinion part ) which is considered the better bike for the money ?
at one point I would’ve said Lynskey without hesitation. I ride a Lynskey-era Litespeed and it’s fantastic, and I think Litespeed lost their way a little post-takeover, expanding into CF frames that, to me at least, looked like slapping the LS brand on no-name frames. However, if I was in the market now, I think I’d give both a good look. Lynskey is a known quantity, to me at least, and I have a certain loyalty, given that they made my current ride. But Litespeed’s current lineup looks pretty good, and the prices compare well. My biggest ding against LS was their embrace of press-fit BBs, but they offer a T47 option (at a price), so that makes them more palatable to me.
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Old 01-30-24, 06:28 AM
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At my age and with the injuries that I have sustained over the years, I would never reach the full benefits of a Titanium bike. I guess it's like owning a high end sports car. I'll never go 150 mph in it but it would be fun to have. I just enjoy riding very much, my goal is to do 50 - 60 mile rides. I ride by myself and am not one to say " look at me, I have the bestest, fastest, and yes shiniest bike on the block " I look at owning a Ti bike would be like owning the sports car. I also travel through Chattanooga at least once a year on my way to Indy so I can visit both places if I were to consider one of them. The treatments for rheumatoid arthritis are starting to work and I am able to tolerate riding more than I was a year ago but I still have a way to go. When I was working I would think about retiring and having the time to ride. That time is now and I want to enjoy it as much as I can. I find that joining a forum like this can be great for learning a lot and you guys are all very knowledgeable and helpful but it can also be very expensive. Thank you for all of your replies, boomer.

And yes I do remember "Crazy Eddie" My friend had cable when I was a kid and we used to see his commercials all the time. Ther was a story about him a few years ago that I read and I think he had passed away. I don't recall that he went to jail but now I'll have to do a little looking. Being he and I had the same first name, that was my nickname from back in that era.
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Old 01-30-24, 07:20 AM
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FWIW Wikipedia says "Crazy" Eddie Antar died in 2016.
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Old 01-30-24, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by boomer58
At my age and with the injuries that I have sustained over the years, I would never reach the full benefits of a Titanium bike. I guess it's like owning a high end sports car. I'll never go 150 mph in it but it would be fun to have.
.
When I bought my titanium lynskey, my thought for doing so was comfort, not speed, I had fresh lower back fusion so I was trying to take some of the harshness out of riding. I test rode a lot of bikes, including 2 titanium bikes that friends of mine had, one had a Motobecane (which at the time was a tremendous deal), and the other was a Serotta with the S stays, I have a few steel bikes so I knew what I was comparing, the steel is real mantra vs titanium, which was going to be more comfortable. Both TI bikes were more comfortable than any of my steel bikes, except for my old touring bike, but it had wider 38c tires, and the frame has a longer wheelbase, but even that frame rode harsher with no load than a TI bike, however once loaded the bike rode like a Cadillac, better than the TI even. I rode their bikes for a year on and off, waiting for Motobecane to bring the their TI bikes back in stock, that didn't happen in a timely fashion, so while I was waiting Lynskey had a big close out sale on their Peloton model, and the price was about the same as the Motobecane except the Moto came with DA, mine came with 105, but I decided to snag the Lynskey instead of the Moto.

A TI bike looks like a cheap nude aluminum bike, so nothing flashy, and mine has low end wheels which are durable as heck, only a true bicycling hobbyist will know what it is. The Peloton is a tiny bit noodly when I push it as hard as I can, which doesn't bother me because I don't race, but lower end TI isn't going to be a racing bike type of stiffness. Look, Sean Kelly won the TDF on by far the most noodly bike I have ever ridden, a Vitus 992 small diameter tubing aluminum bike with bonded aluminum lugs, so don't be concerned about the flex in TI frames, that flex is what makes them comfortable. I ride a tall bike, probably if it was a small or medium I wouldn't even notice it on the Lynskey, plus the Peloton is more of a sport geometry not a racing geometry so that adds a bit to it as well. Some of that small degree of flexing could be due to the cheaper low spoke count wheels, but they take surface streets without ever needing a trueing. By the way, the Peloton has significantly less flex than a Peugeot PX10 professional I test rode years back in the mid 70s, or my first racing bike a 1976 Trek TX900 though that one had less flex than the PX10, and the Peloton has a bit less flex than the Serotta I tested, about equal to the Motobecane, but in all fairness the Serotta bike was built for comfort not racing, those S rear stays does that very well but the flexing is more noticeable.

Comfort does bring some compromises to the show, but nothing glaring, except on very long rides is where the comfort factor of TI will shine like a bright star, and you'll be glad you made the investment. If you don't ride very far then don't bother wasting money on a TI bike but once you start doing 40 mile plus rides, which you do, you come to love TI. Keep in mind, that the lower end TI bikes will be more comfortable because they are not built with that racing stiffness in mind, so that will save you some serious dough avoiding the higher end racing models. Also look at the geometry of a given bike, a gravel TI bike will be more comfortable to ride than a TI road race frame, not only due to the geometry being very similar to the old school sport geometry, but the wider tires as well which means you can run on lower PSI and doing so absorbs more shock.

You can make your current bike more comfortable without spending big bucks on a TI bike, the cheapest way is to go with the widest tire that will fit your bike, plus go another step and get a set of Rene Herse tires, those ride extremely well, sort of expensive but it is what it is; and if you want to take it another step add in a pair of latex tubes, but those are fragile so you need to be very good at installing tubes. Another thing you can do is go to RedShift Sports and buy the Shockstop system which involves a shock absorbing seatpost and stem. This product works very well, I have it on my touring bike and it helps immensely at keeping me more comfortable riding every day on a loaded bike, it does add some weight but for me it was worth the extra weight. That system is adjustable, so you can tailor it for you, my seat came supposedly adjusted to my weight but I found it too bouncy, so I tightened up the knob and now it's good. It does take a bit of getting use to riding with the Shockstop stuff, but eventually you forget it's there other than you know it's working.
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Old 01-30-24, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
When I bought my titanium lynskey, my thought for doing so was comfort, not speed, I had fresh lower back fusion so I was trying to take some of the harshness out of riding. I test rode a lot of bikes, including 2 titanium bikes that friends of mine had, one had a Motobecane (which at the time was a tremendous deal), and the other was a Serotta with the S stays, I have a few steel bikes so I knew what I was comparing, the steel is real mantra vs titanium, which was going to be more comfortable. Both TI bikes were more comfortable than any of my steel bikes, except for my old touring bike, but it had wider 38c tires, and the frame has a longer wheelbase, but even that frame rode harsher with no load than a TI bike, however once loaded the bike rode like a Cadillac, better than the TI even. I rode their bikes for a year on and off, waiting for Motobecane to bring the their TI bikes back in stock, that didn't happen in a timely fashion, so while I was waiting Lynskey had a big close out sale on their Peloton model, and the price was about the same as the Motobecane except the Moto came with DA, mine came with 105, but I decided to snag the Lynskey instead of the Moto.

A TI bike looks like a cheap nude aluminum bike, so nothing flashy, and mine has low end wheels which are durable as heck, only a true bicycling hobbyist will know what it is. The Peloton is a tiny bit noodly when I push it as hard as I can, which doesn't bother me because I don't race, but lower end TI isn't going to be a racing bike type of stiffness. Look, Sean Kelly won the TDF on by far the most noodly bike I have ever ridden, a Vitus 992 small diameter tubing aluminum bike with bonded aluminum lugs, so don't be concerned about the flex in TI frames, that flex is what makes them comfortable. I ride a tall bike, probably if it was a small or medium I wouldn't even notice it on the Lynskey, plus the Peloton is more of a sport geometry not a racing geometry so that adds a bit to it as well. Some of that small degree of flexing could be due to the cheaper low spoke count wheels, but they take surface streets without ever needing a trueing. By the way, the Peloton has significantly less flex than a Peugeot PX10 professional I test rode years back in the mid 70s, or my first racing bike a 1976 Trek TX900 though that one had less flex than the PX10, and the Peloton has a bit less flex than the Serotta I tested, about equal to the Motobecane, but in all fairness the Serotta bike was built for comfort not racing, those S rear stays does that very well but the flexing is more noticeable.

Comfort does bring some compromises to the show, but nothing glaring, except on very long rides is where the comfort factor of TI will shine like a bright star, and you'll be glad you made the investment. If you don't ride very far then don't bother wasting money on a TI bike but once you start doing 40 mile plus rides, which you do, you come to love TI. Keep in mind, that the lower end TI bikes will be more comfortable because they are not built with that racing stiffness in mind, so that will save you some serious dough avoiding the higher end racing models. Also look at the geometry of a given bike, a gravel TI bike will be more comfortable to ride than a TI road race frame, not only due to the geometry being very similar to the old school sport geometry, but the wider tires as well which means you can run on lower PSI and doing so absorbs more shock.

You can make your current bike more comfortable without spending big bucks on a TI bike, the cheapest way is to go with the widest tire that will fit your bike, plus go another step and get a set of Rene Herse tires, those ride extremely well, sort of expensive but it is what it is; and if you want to take it another step add in a pair of latex tubes, but those are fragile so you need to be very good at installing tubes. Another thing you can do is go to RedShift Sports and buy the Shockstop system which involves a shock absorbing seatpost and stem. This product works very well, I have it on my touring bike and it helps immensely at keeping me more comfortable riding every day on a loaded bike, it does add some weight but for me it was worth the extra weight. That system is adjustable, so you can tailor it for you, my seat came supposedly adjusted to my weight but I found it too bouncy, so I tightened up the knob and now it's good. It does take a bit of getting use to riding with the Shockstop stuff, but eventually you forget it's there other than you know it's working.
There is absolutely no science behind the narrative that titanium is a more comfortable frame material than, say, steel. It is a long-disproven myth not based in fact.
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Old 01-30-24, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
FWIW Wikipedia says "Crazy" Eddie Antar died in 2016.
So, probably not in jail anymore.
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Old 01-30-24, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
There is absolutely no science behind the narrative that titanium is a more comfortable frame material than, say, steel. It is a long-disproven myth not based in fact.
Although I suspect that cheaper Titanium frames may well be more "comfortable", i.e. more compliant, simply because there's less titanium in them. That seems to have been the case historically.

But, yeah - it's like saying "Aluminum frames are stiff".
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Old 01-30-24, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
There is absolutely no science behind the narrative that titanium is a more comfortable frame material than, say, steel. It is a long-disproven myth not based in fact.
Welp, I'll tell my ass and body that, thanks for chiming in.
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Old 01-31-24, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by boomer58
At my age and with the injuries that I have sustained over the years, I would never reach the full benefits of a Titanium bike. ...
I just wish we'd all quit saying stuff like this. The value of a nice bike, or any sports or hobby equipment, to anyone (except maybe a very serious racer, which are a very, very small portion of the high end sports equipment market) is not performance based, but how much fun it is to look, handle and use it. Who cares if the bike is better than the rider? Only people who are for some reason jealous because they don't have one. I love my CF and titanium and high end steel bikes clipping along at my 13 mph pace for about 2,000 miles per year.
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Old 01-31-24, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
I just wish we'd all quit saying stuff like this. The value of a nice bike, or any sports or hobby equipment, to anyone (except maybe a very serious racer, which are a very, very small portion of the high end sports equipment market) is not performance based, but how much fun it is to look, handle and use it. Who cares if the bike is better than the rider? Only people who are for some reason jealous because they don't have one. I love my CF and titanium and high end steel bikes clipping along at my 13 mph pace for about 2,000 miles per year.
I tend to agree with this. The premise that "carbon fiber bikes are only for pros" is utter nonsense. I love my high-end, lightweight, carbon fiber bikes because they get the most out of the fitness that I have right now. They also inspire me to want to ride more, which is a good thing. I may not be as fast as I used to be, but I still recognize and appreciate the ride qualities of a high-end, go-fast, race bike - road, gravel, and MTB.

I strongly believe that whatever bike excites you...or makes you happy...or best suits you needs...is a good bike, regardless of what material it's made from, and it's totally okay for us to have different preferences.
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Old 01-31-24, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Although I suspect that cheaper Titanium frames may well be more "comfortable", i.e. more compliant, simply because there's less titanium in them. That seems to have been the case historically.

But, yeah - it's like saying "Aluminum frames are stiff".
Aluminum frames are stiff...when they're built to be stiff. Same is true for other materials, as well.
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Old 01-31-24, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Aluminum frames are stiff...when they're built to be stiff. Same is true for other materials, as well.
My stiffest, harshest bike is a vintage Italian steel bike. My single data point refutes the legendary luxurious steel ride. Of course, that's as ridiculous as the generalization that aluminum is harsh and CF or Ti are somehow magically comfortable.

It's only geometry, tires, and fit parts that make a difference. IMHO of course
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Old 02-03-24, 03:05 AM
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Titanium all the way
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Old 02-03-24, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I tend to agree with this. The premise that "carbon fiber bikes are only for pros" is utter nonsense. I love my high-end, lightweight, carbon fiber bikes because they get the most out of the fitness that I have right now. They also inspire me to want to ride more, which is a good thing. I may not be as fast as I used to be, but I still recognize and appreciate the ride qualities of a high-end, go-fast, race bike - road, gravel, and MTB.

I strongly believe that whatever bike excites you...or makes you happy...or best suits you needs...is a good bike, regardless of what material it's made from, and it's totally okay for us to have different preferences.
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
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