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What scares me about Canyon

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What scares me about Canyon

Old 01-20-24, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Or they've been burned by selling a fork direct to a customer who then had it installed by a mechanic friend (i.e., a guy who works at Jiffy Lube and usually manages to put the plug back in without cross-threading it, sometimes on the first try).

Then, the installation having been screwed up and the fork damaged as a result, the customer insists on being sent a "nondefective" fork for free.

Anyone who has worked in a bike shop for any length of time has likely encountered this at least once, to say nothing of distributors that sell to hundreds of shops. With a manufacturer that sells high-end bikes, all it takes is one such event for the company to adopt a blanket policy: "No direct sales of parts to consumers."
The USA may be the land of the irresponsible, where the first thought of anyone who has screwed up is: who do I sue for this? But stopping direct sales of replacement parts for expensive products after just a few instances of end user misuse is a recipe for going out of business. If a component is really that sensitive, the company may instead choose to condition the warranty on installation by an authorized dealer.
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Old 01-20-24, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
The USA may be the land of the irresponsible, where the first thought of anyone who has screwed up is: who do I sue for this? But stopping direct sales of replacement parts for expensive products after just a few instances of end user misuse is a recipe for going out of business. If a component is really that sensitive, the company may instead choose to condition the warranty on installation by an authorized dealer.
That's exactly right, of course. I guess every such company has to make that determination by projecting lost sales versus costs from spurious warranty claims.
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Old 01-20-24, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Or they've been burned by selling a fork direct to a customer who then had it installed by a mechanic friend (i.e., a guy who works at Jiffy Lube and usually manages to put the plug back in without cross-threading it, sometimes on the first try).

Then, the installation having been screwed up and the fork damaged as a result, the customer insists on being sent a "nondefective" fork for free."
Absolutely not the case. What about cars parts, then? they are hundred times more complex than bike parts, but you can buy them free on the market. Besides, the fork came to me as new and unused, but without any warranty, so I could not make any kind claim.
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Old 01-20-24, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Redbullet
Absolutely not the case. What about cars parts, then? they are hundred times more complex than bike parts, but you can buy them free on the market. Besides, the fork came to me as new and unused, but without any warranty, so I could not make any kind claim.
Took me a minute to realize that "Absolutely not the case" referred to your situation specifically.

The bike industry is very different. Bikes in the U.S. had no explicit warranties until Schwinn came up with their lifetime frame warranty in the 1950's, purely as a marketing move, to promote their new electro-forged frames. As late as the 1980s, or maybe even later, European bike companies gave no warranties on frames or forks.

(Example from my experience working in bike stores back then: any Italian Bianchi bikes we sold that had warranty problems were replaced by Bianchi USA, which then threw the frame away, because Bianchi of Italy had no frame warranty.)

I've been out of the bike industry for decades, so I don't know whether any government agencies mandate specific warranties for bikes in this country or elsewhere. But I suspect that warranties are still primarily marketing tools, with each company devising its own warranty policies.
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Old 01-20-24, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by t2p
have a 27 year old Litespeed with AMP rear suspension - 12 year old Cannondale with a Headshok - and a 5 year old Cannondale with a Lefty

I donít understand the aversion to proprietary parts ???

on a related note - looking forward to riding the above bikes when I can find some replacement parts
I also have a couple classic 'Dale MTBs, as well as an early Klein and a SoftRide: The Struggle is Real!
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Old 01-22-24, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chain smoker
Yes $220.00 is insane for a derailleur hanger but itís cheaper than a whole new bike.
Iíll pass.
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Old 01-23-24, 05:37 AM
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This is finally what scares you?
I've always shied away from the word "proprietary",
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer. Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
I live near Canyon's Carlsbad HQs, and I strangely I even lived near their HQs in Koblenz, Germany. They're a lot more interested in marketing than they are in engineering or quality.

Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!

Last edited by calamarichris; 01-23-24 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 01-23-24, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
This is finally what scares you?
I've always shied away from the word "proprietary",
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer. Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
I live near Canyon's Carlsbad HQs, and I strangely I even lived near their HQs in Koblenz, Germany. They're a lot more interested in marketing than they are in engineering or quality.

Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!
The cynical view never gets old here on BF. Having now owned 2 "plastic" Canyons I think their engineering is fine.
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Old 01-23-24, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Iíll pass.
Would you toss the bike in the landfill?
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Old 01-23-24, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
This is finally what scares you?
I've always shied away from the word "proprietary",
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer. Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
I live near Canyon's Carlsbad HQs, and I strangely I even lived near their HQs in Koblenz, Germany. They're a lot more interested in marketing than they are in engineering or quality.

Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!
I think there are some kids on your lawn. You probably oughta go outside and yell at them.
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Old 01-23-24, 10:59 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
Many current bikes have PF BBs. Many have threaded BBs in BSA or T45 sizing. Some of the PF BBs may creak, yes, but many dont.
CF bikes for hobby/enthusiast riders are not seen as disposable or designed to be disposable, despite your fun terminology. They just arent.

Originally Posted by calamarichris
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer. Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
Steel bikes can last several lifetimes, yes. They can also break sooner than aluminum or carbon frames. It depends on the design and fabrication, in all instances. Again, CF frames are not inherently disposable. They can, and do, last a long time.

Originally Posted by calamarichris
Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!
11 speed exists because drivetrain brands need to continue to try to innovate. If they stop, others will overtake marketshare because AS A WHOLE, CONSUMERS WANT NEW TECH. You seem to think this is a scenario where companies are pushing product upon consumers and while that is certainly part of the scenario, a large part is that consumers are wanting new tech and want 'improvements'.
Furthermore, adding speeds to the cassette has allowed cassettes to be wider in range while still having some smaller jumps. This, along with 2x subcompact cranks, has given riders better range compared to old triples with less of the futzing that came with the triple shifting.



Before you respond, keep in mind...
- of the 7 drop bar bikes I currently have, 6 are steel and 1 is aluminum...so no carbon.
- I have frames from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 10s. Only 1 is disc brake.
- one of my drop bar bikes is 3x9 with drivetrain components from the 90s and 00s, and 5 other bikes in my family are 2x9 from the 00s and 10s.
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Old 01-23-24, 11:20 AM
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Some on here do make a big deal about nothing. A decade ago, I was worried about my first bike with a pressfit bottom bracket...since then, I've realized that it's really a non-issue. Even if one does wear out, it's not that hard to successfully replace them.

Carbon technology has come so far. Even el cheapo carbon bikes often have lay-up quality that is as good, if not superiour, to premier frames of 20+ years ago.

Shifting is better than ever IMO. I've had both 3x8, 2x9, and 3x9 on previous bikes(still have the 3x9.) I wouldn't trade my 2x11 drivetrains, for a triple, on any of my other drop bar bikes. In fact, my compact 2x11s absolutely kill my 3x9 as far as low gear selection. Sure they give up a bit on the top range, but it's not like a 50x11 doesn't have enough for the downhills. I had my first foray into electronic shifting on my new mtb, a 1x12. I can now totally see the hype around electronic shifting...derailleur adjustments are super simple, and I don't have to be bothered with replacing shift cables anymore.
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Old 01-23-24, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sierra_rider
Some on here do make a big deal about nothing. A decade ago, I was worried about my first bike with a pressfit bottom bracket...since then, I've realized that it's really a non-issue. Even if one does wear out, it's not that hard to successfully replace them.

Shifting is better than ever IMO....I can now totally see the hype around electronic shifting...derailleur adjustments are super simple, and I don't have to be bothered with replacing shift cables anymore.
You've actually tried the newer tech and found that it works quite well. I suspect that many of the naysayers have simply never tried electronic shifting, cf frames, whatever.

Some people's perceptions are clouded by nostalgia -- "back in my day, we only had eight sprockets -- and we liked it!" They are stuck in some mythical past when they were fitter, stronger, and had more hair -- and they associate their old-tech bikes with those glory days.
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Old 01-23-24, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
This is finally what scares you?
I've always shied away from the word "proprietary",
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer.Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
I live near Canyon's Carlsbad HQs, and I strangely I even lived near their HQs in Koblenz, Germany. They're a lot more interested in marketing than they are in engineering or quality.

Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!
What a steaming pile of nonsense. A few facts:
  • carbon composites have infinite fatigue life
  • carbon composites do not rust
  • carbon composite crack propagation is self-halting
And a few others:
  • steel is subject to fatigue, corrosion, and crack propagation failures
  • no chain-drive drivetrain lasts a lifetime
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Old 01-23-24, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
The cynical view never gets old here on BF. Having now owned 2 "plastic" Canyons I think their engineering is fine.
2 Canyons? What happened, you couldn't get a replacement part and bought a new bike instead?
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Old 01-23-24, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
This is finally what scares you?
I've always shied away from the word "proprietary",
I used to race, commute, and live on a Campagnolo C-Recond crankset in glorious harmony with a Dura Ace drivetrain: the best of all possible worlds. Now we have creaking BB-30 and nothing works together. Also we have plastic-fantastic disposabikes.
Ingenious marketing, actually.
The problem: sell a bike, lose a customer. Steel bikes are idiotic because they last several lifetimes.
The solution: carbon fiber disposabikes.
I live near Canyon's Carlsbad HQs, and I strangely lived near their HQs in Koblenz, Germany. They're a lot more interested in marketing than they are in engineering or quality.

Problem: 8-speed drivetrains last a lifetime and are therefore an affront to capitalism.
Solution: 11 speed with proprietary electronic shifting that doesn't function if the battery wears out!
You have come to the right place to proselytize about days of yore. It's all a marketing scam by Big Bike.
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Old 01-23-24, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
2 Canyons? What happened, you couldn't get a replacement part and bought a new bike instead?
I have 1 Canyon road bike and 1 Canyon mountain bike. I havenít needed any replacement proprietary parts, but they appear to be available here in the UK.

Ironically, when I ordered my Canyon road bike in late 2021 most other manufacturers had literally no bikes in stock here. Everything was backed up for 12 months due to drivetrain parts supply issues. Canyon was one of the few with bike stocks and they sold out quickly that winter.
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Old 01-28-24, 06:57 PM
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This thread saved me from buying a '23 Endurace in the size and color I like (deep red). I can't take a chance on not having any options for the stem and bars.

I bought a '21 S-Works Roubaix instead.... plenty of fitting options!

Gary
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Old 01-28-24, 08:09 PM
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This thread has certainly given me pause about buying another more exotic bike. Probably will stick with Specialized or similar. Qunitana Roo excepted.
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Old 01-28-24, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob
This thread has certainly given me pause about buying another more exotic bike. Probably will stick with Specialized or similar. Qunitana Roo excepted.
Full custom has a lot going for it, unless you're a complete weight weenie. (Custom almost always means a steel or ti frame.) Traditional threaded BBs are the norm in custom frames, and you can spec everything else -- brake mounts, dropouts, whatever -- just as you want it. If you want every single bit on the bike to be easily replaceable, that's the norm rather than the exception.

And there's nothing more exotic than a frame built just for you. I mean, have you seen indyfabz 's bike? He posted a photo of it once a long time ago.
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Old 01-28-24, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Before you respond, keep in mind...
- of the 7 drop bar bikes I currently have, 6 are steel and 1 is aluminum...so no carbon.
- I have frames from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 10s. Only 1 is disc brake.
- one of my drop bar bikes is 3x9 with drivetrain components from the 90s and 00s, and 5 other bikes in my family are 2x9 from the 00s and 10s.
calamarichris would call you "an affront to capitalism".
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Old 01-28-24, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Full custom has a lot going for it, unless you're a complete weight weenie. (Custom almost always means a steel or ti frame.) Traditional threaded BBs are the norm in custom frames, and you can spec everything else -- brake mounts, dropouts, whatever -- just as you want it. If you want every single bit on the bike to be easily replaceable, that's the norm rather than the exception.

And there's nothing more exotic than a frame built just for you. I mean, have you seen indyfabz 's bike? He posted a photo of it once a long time ago.
Owned a full custom Rodriguez chro-molly tandem from R&E cycles in Seattle. Everything was easily replaceable and it was a good solid bike.
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Old 01-29-24, 10:15 AM
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I emailed Canyon US and told them I needed a longer stem cockpit for my bike. The cockpit I want/need "is expected near the end of June or early July". So basically, if mine was broken I would be SOL.

I think this may be my first and last Canyon.
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Old 01-29-24, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Steel bikes can last several lifetimes, yes. They can also break sooner than aluminum or carbon frames. It depends on the design and fabrication, in all instances. Again, CF frames are not inherently disposable. They can, and do, last a long time.
Before you respond, keep in mind...
- of the 7 drop bar bikes I currently have, 6 are steel and 1 is aluminum...so no carbon.
- I have frames from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 10s. Only 1 is disc brake.
- one of my drop bar bikes is 3x9 with drivetrain components from the 90s and 00s, and 5 other bikes in my family are 2x9 from the 00s and 10s.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Steel bikes can last several lifetimes, yes. They can also break sooner than aluminum or carbon frames. It depends on the design and fabrication, in all instances. Again, CF frames are not inherently disposable. They can, and do, last a long time
Before you respond, keep in mind...
- of the 7 drop bar bikes I currently have, 6 are steel and 1 is aluminum...so no carbon.
- I have frames from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 10s. Only 1 is disc brake.
- one of my drop bar bikes is 3x9 with drivetrain components from the 90s and 00s, and 5 other bikes in my family are 2x9 from the 00s and 10s.
Woah. Quite the pedigree! /s
I've broken 27 bones, turned an 80's lycra-covered Giro helmet into styrofoam balls, snapped one Felt carbon fiber frame (without crashing?) and bent the hell out of one steel frame (crashed into a guardrail on a tight corner while turning a helmet into styrofoam snow). Yet I was still able to ride that steel frame home.
The cf frame snapped while I was sprinting. The steel frame took a guardrail to bend. And it only cost a few hundred to repair and repaint. Felt sent me a replacement, but they made it awkward and it took a few months.

I'm not clumsy and I've always prided myself on my pedaling form. I've just ridden hundreds of thousands of miles very speedily.

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Old 01-30-24, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Full custom has a lot going for it, unless you're a complete weight weenie. (Custom almost always means a steel or ti frame.)
By "complete weight weenie" I'm guessing you mean someone who wants a bike lighter than 15 pounds. You could beat that with lightweight component selection with a custom steel frame (but probably without a lifetime frame warranty!). IIRC, even Armstrong's bikes built with state of the art carbon for a few years after UCF set the limit exceeded that limit by a pound or two.

And there's nothing more exotic than a frame built just for you. I mean, have you seen indyfabz 's bike? He posted a photo of it once a long time ago.
Nice bike, TBH. I think he reposted that picture a couple months later. And maybe again a year after that. And maybe a picture of the loaded bike the following year, and then again a couple months ago. If you ask nicely, you might get another shot of it.
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