Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Bike Snob NY (Eben Weiss) on carbon

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Bike Snob NY (Eben Weiss) on carbon

Old 01-30-24, 07:50 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,787

Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2276 Post(s)
Liked 2,680 Times in 1,469 Posts
Bike Snob NY (Eben Weiss) on carbon

I am not a carbon hater, and neither is BSNYC, but i agree with a lot of this in terms of day to day use.

get the popcorn out


https://www.outsideonline.com/cultur...a-carbon-bike/
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)



squirtdad is offline  
Likes For squirtdad:
Old 01-30-24, 07:53 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,644
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6796 Post(s)
Liked 10,697 Times in 4,576 Posts
You're late to the party.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-30-24, 08:08 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,555
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1144 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 614 Posts
The lure is already in the water. Got a few good bites but pool is mostly fished out.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Likes For Atlas Shrugged:
Old 01-31-24, 10:57 AM
  #4  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 178 Post(s)
Liked 225 Times in 156 Posts
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
The lure is already in the water. Got a few good bites but pool is mostly fished out.
I'll bite.
While I don't disagree with the most of the facts, or maybe any in that article, I disagree with the conclusions. The word "need" is pointless. I don't even "need" a bike, and a pro doesn't need a bike either, they can flip burgers for a living. That of course is an extreme position, but so is the use of the word "need."

More realistically, the author seems to have the opinion that the only thing needed on a bike, beyond the basics, is what is needed to be competitive in bike races. I "need" a carbon frame because this increases my enjoyment of my bike and that is the reason I ride.

My carbon bike is more comfortable, aero and lighter. I like comfort and I like being lighter. While being a few pounds lighter only has a minimal effect on speed while climbing, the bike feels better to me. As for aero, I enjoy going as fast as I can. All of this adds to my enjoyment.

Oh, in the case of my two carbon bikes, a Trek Domane and Trek Checkpoint, both have down-tube storage which I don't think any metal frame bike has or could reasonably have without being extremely heavy. I really like being able to keep all my roadside repair stuff tucked away in the frame storage.

Clearly if carbon didn't exist, I would still enjoy cycling. Likely there is some future, yet to be discovered material, that will be lighter and stronger than carbon. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of carbon, yet.

Aside from the expense of the carbon, there is no other downside that I have encountered. I'll accept a carbon frame is more fragile in some ways, that's why I don't use a typical clamp it in my repair stand and use a Silca Hirobel frame clamp. I also think the author is overstating how fragile carbon frames are. Carbon is popular for MTB's and many riders essentially crash their bikes every time they use them. Of course, I know an MTB is built differently, but I haven't crashed, tipped over, anything on my road bike in several years (knock on wood). And if I did, it's far from certain that the bike would be damaged.

And concerning damage, carbon frames can be repaired.
Mtracer is offline  
Old 01-31-24, 11:22 AM
  #5  
I am potato.
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,013

Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1721 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times in 886 Posts
He's right about lots. I even had my fancy carbon bike repaired whereas an even more fun 10 year old aluminum frame with less miles hangs from the rafters with an unrepairable crack.

I agree. The sticking point is on need. Nobody needs anything except for perhaps Mazlows hierarchy. All my bikes are steel except 1 aluminum and the above mentioned carbon. But want is a pretty strong factor. I want the funnest most suitable bike for a given task. For some tasks, wünderbike is best in a way steel isn't and will never be.

As always, keep it classy, Eben.

Base2

Last edited by base2; 01-31-24 at 11:26 AM.
base2 is offline  
Likes For base2:
Old 01-31-24, 11:29 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,644
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6796 Post(s)
Liked 10,697 Times in 4,576 Posts
As I wrote in the other thread on this topic, there is no way to differentiate "needs" from "wants" when talking about individual products. It's best to just not even use the word "need."
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 01-31-24, 11:47 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
icemilkcoffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,508
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1486 Post(s)
Liked 1,613 Times in 912 Posts
Every material has its own idiosyncrasies. But the most forgiving bike material is probably aluminum. For some reasons paint seems to stick to aluminum frames really well whereas it chips off of steel frames if you look at it too hard. The funny thing is- on cars, it is the opposite. Just look at any old Land Rover. Aluminum frames are also a lot less prone to small dents and dings as steel frame. And to state the obvious- aluminum doesn't rust and steel does.
The most worrisome material is probably a carbon-aluminum glue jointed frame. The thoughts of galvanic corrosion, glue failure, headtube overtightening and aluminum lug cracking are never far from your mind.
icemilkcoffee is offline  
Likes For icemilkcoffee:
Old 01-31-24, 11:59 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,371

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3257 Post(s)
Liked 2,675 Times in 1,622 Posts
I have no problem if someone wants to own and experience a world-class racing bike--no matter what it's made out of, and no matter what the rider's weight, riding style or mechanical skill-level. Being able to experience something high-end is its own reward.
smd4 is online now  
Likes For smd4:
Old 01-31-24, 12:02 PM
  #9  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 6,801

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3174 Post(s)
Liked 3,264 Times in 1,647 Posts
Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Every material has its own idiosyncrasies. But the most forgiving bike material is probably aluminum. For some reasons paint seems to stick to aluminum frames really well whereas it chips off of steel frames if you look at it too hard. The funny thing is- on cars, it is the opposite. Just look at any old Land Rover. Aluminum frames are also a lot less prone to small dents and dings as steel frame. And to state the obvious- aluminum doesn't rust and steel does.
The most worrisome material is probably a carbon-aluminum glue jointed frame. The thoughts of galvanic corrosion, glue failure, headtube overtightening and aluminum lug cracking are never far from your mind.
  1. Of the many features I look for in a frame, how well paint sticks to it is way, way down the list.
  2. Al frames don't dent easily because they are thick. They need to be to provide the same strength as steel (Edit: or Ti, settle down).
  3. Al doesn't rust, but it does corrode. Badly, in some situations.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat

Zwift: Terry Morse [OldAF]
ROUVY: terrymorse






Last edited by terrymorse; 01-31-24 at 12:08 PM.
terrymorse is online now  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 01-31-24, 12:06 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 38,813
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18213 Post(s)
Liked 14,975 Times in 7,091 Posts
I loves me a good frame material thread.

But in the end, we all know Ti is the best, even if some of you can’t admit it.
indyfabz is online now  
Old 01-31-24, 12:13 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,732

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3811 Post(s)
Liked 7,021 Times in 2,838 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz
But in the end, we all know Ti is the best, even if some of you can’t admit it.
Anyone that has ever owned a frame made from flax will disagree. Both of them ...
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 01-31-24, 04:47 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,697
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1065 Post(s)
Liked 1,145 Times in 730 Posts
Originally Posted by Mtracer
I'll bite.
While I don't disagree with the most of the facts, or maybe any in that article, I disagree with the conclusions. The word "need" is pointless. I don't even "need" a bike, and a pro doesn't need a bike either, they can flip burgers for a living. That of course is an extreme position, but so is the use of the word "need."

More realistically, the author seems to have the opinion that the only thing needed on a bike, beyond the basics, is what is needed to be competitive in bike races. I "need" a carbon frame because this increases my enjoyment of my bike and that is the reason I ride.

My carbon bike is more comfortable, aero and lighter. I like comfort and I like being lighter. While being a few pounds lighter only has a minimal effect on speed while climbing, the bike feels better to me. As for aero, I enjoy going as fast as I can. All of this adds to my enjoyment.

Oh, in the case of my two carbon bikes, a Trek Domane and Trek Checkpoint, both have down-tube storage which I don't think any metal frame bike has or could reasonably have without being extremely heavy. I really like being able to keep all my roadside repair stuff tucked away in the frame storage.

Clearly if carbon didn't exist, I would still enjoy cycling. Likely there is some future, yet to be discovered material, that will be lighter and stronger than carbon. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of carbon, yet.

Aside from the expense of the carbon, there is no other downside that I have encountered. I'll accept a carbon frame is more fragile in some ways, that's why I don't use a typical clamp it in my repair stand and use a Silca Hirobel frame clamp. I also think the author is overstating how fragile carbon frames are. Carbon is popular for MTB's and many riders essentially crash their bikes every time they use them. Of course, I know an MTB is built differently, but I haven't crashed, tipped over, anything on my road bike in several years (knock on wood). And if I did, it's far from certain that the bike would be damaged.

And concerning damage, carbon frames can be repaired.
You give this way too much effort. The Bike Snob's article is ridiculous and irrelevant.
Camilo is offline  
Likes For Camilo:
Old 01-31-24, 07:03 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,921
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
Liked 461 Times in 333 Posts
Recently “upgraded” to a full carbon fancy $3k bike, have to say the biggest changes are that I feel more upset at mechanical problems because of the cost of the bike, and am more paranoid about sudden catastrophic failures (had a carbon seatpost snap before.)

is it faster? Sure, but not by much, and I don’t like riding at the limit of my fitness on it because I don’t fully trust carbon yet, so it’s not even really faster except on climbs
LarrySellerz is offline  
Likes For LarrySellerz:
Old 01-31-24, 07:49 PM
  #14  
With a mighty wind
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,527
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1064 Post(s)
Liked 829 Times in 468 Posts
There is no amount of logic that can be applied to consumers.

Does the 45 year old dad who rides one to two times a week when it’s warm need a 15lb carbon bike instead of an 18lb steel one?

Absolutely not. It’s a lost argument to try to state otherwise.

But that doesn’t mean that’s what he wants. There are a ton of consumers who’ve decided that they want carbon, and so, we have a market full of carbon. If the balding masses all wanted steel bikes, the market would reflect that.

I do pretty much agree with that article though. Of the 6 bikes in the garage between me and my wife, 5 are steel, one is aluminum, all have threaded bottom brackets, and aren’t likely to feel old anytime soon.

Can we start a new thread about how phenomenal carbon fiber is as a component material? Rims, forks, seatposts, cranks, handlebars, and shoes. Maybe especially shoes.
rosefarts is offline  
Old 01-31-24, 08:37 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,555
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1144 Post(s)
Liked 1,202 Times in 614 Posts
Originally Posted by rosefarts
There is no amount of logic that can be applied to consumers.

Does the 45 year old dad who rides one to two times a week when it’s warm need a 15lb carbon bike instead of an 18lb steel one?

Absolutely not. It’s a lost argument to try to state otherwise.

But that doesn’t mean that’s what he wants. There are a ton of consumers who’ve decided that they want carbon, and so, we have a market full of carbon. If the balding masses all wanted steel bikes, the market would reflect that.

I do pretty much agree with that article though. Of the 6 bikes in the garage between me and my wife, 5 are steel, one is aluminum, all have threaded bottom brackets, and aren’t likely to feel old anytime soon.

Can we start a new thread about how phenomenal carbon fiber is as a component material? Rims, forks, seatposts, cranks, handlebars, and shoes. Maybe especially shoes.
The same can be said about the extreme minority of active sporting cyclist who participate in these forums.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 01-31-24 at 08:41 PM.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 01-31-24, 08:57 PM
  #16  
With a mighty wind
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,527
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1064 Post(s)
Liked 829 Times in 468 Posts
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
The same can be said about the extreme minority of active sporting cyclist who participate in these forums.
We really shouldn’t talk about logic and humanity in the same sentence actually.
rosefarts is offline  
Old 01-31-24, 10:19 PM
  #17  
Rider. Wanderer. Creator.
 
john m flores's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 693

Bikes: Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, Cinelli Hobootleg, Zizzo Liberte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked 680 Times in 324 Posts
Nobody needs a Rolex or a Ducati or a Leica either. Yet they exist. Oh the humanity!
__________________
--------------------------------------
Rider. Wanderer. Creator.
JohnMFlores.com | YouTube: JohnMFlores
Insta: JohnMichaelFlores | TikTok: @johnnymotoflores
john m flores is offline  
Likes For john m flores:
Old 01-31-24, 10:27 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,697
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1065 Post(s)
Liked 1,145 Times in 730 Posts
Originally Posted by rosefarts
There is no amount of logic that can be applied to consumers..
There's no amount of logic than can be applied to folks who think they know what others should value.
Camilo is offline  
Old 01-31-24, 11:18 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,417

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7611 Post(s)
Liked 3,415 Times in 1,807 Posts
AsI see it the whole debate is artificial The whole debate over whether some riders “need” or “deserve” a bike of some specific frame material is a manufactured debate. The idea that one frame material is superior to another is a manufactured debate point.

I imagine proud pennyfarthing riders asking’ “Does that rider Deserve a safety bicycle?”

It is a bicycle. One does not “earn” the right to ride it based on mileage or speed. One earns the right to ride it by buying or otherwise acquiring it. No one needs it. Anyone who makes the effort can own it.

We can ridicule the author but so many posters actually seem to agree. Bike frame fascism is alive and well it seems
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 02-01-24, 06:16 AM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,371

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3257 Post(s)
Liked 2,675 Times in 1,622 Posts
Wonder how many duffers in this group play with professional-level golf clubs?
smd4 is online now  
Likes For smd4:
Old 02-01-24, 07:34 AM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 38,813
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18213 Post(s)
Liked 14,975 Times in 7,091 Posts
Originally Posted by Camilo
You give this way too much effort. The Bike Snob's article is ridiculous and irrelevant.
Yet often “talked” about, and thus effective.
indyfabz is online now  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 02-01-24, 08:22 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 7,769
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4043 Post(s)
Liked 4,432 Times in 2,752 Posts
A lot of people choose bikes based on aesthetics. It's the same with cars and many other things once you get beyond basic needs. Beyond meeting functional requirements it's then all about how it looks and the cost.
PeteHski is offline  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 02-01-24, 08:26 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,371

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3257 Post(s)
Liked 2,675 Times in 1,622 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
A lot of people choose bikes based on aesthetics. It's the same with cars and many other things once you get beyond basic needs. Beyond meeting functional requirements it's then all about how it looks and the cost.
Absolutely true.

On another thread I mention about the Cinelli Supercorsa and chrome. In the late 1980s, Cinelli's American importer brought in a newer Cinelli model based on the Supercorsa, cheaper, with different lugs, and no chrome. It was a disaster, because people enjoyed the aesthetics of the Supercorsa. Aesthetics mattered.
smd4 is online now  
Likes For smd4:
Old 02-01-24, 08:46 AM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,644
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6796 Post(s)
Liked 10,697 Times in 4,576 Posts
When I see these discussions on bf, I always end up shaking my head.

There is no way of distinguishing between needs and wants; thus there are only wants. I spend my money how I want to, as I know my wants better than anyone else can.

These arguments arise from an inability to comprehend that.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 02-01-24, 08:47 AM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: Eastern Shore MD
Posts: 772

Bikes: Lemond Zurich/Trek ALR/Giant TCX/Sette CX1

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 507 Post(s)
Liked 672 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
Wonder how many duffers in this group play with professional-level golf clubs?
Insert any hobby into this discussion.

Not that there is anything wrong with it - but the internet has played a massive role in duffers using professional level gear. Go on any early golf based message board and there would be board golf "pro's" telling newbs that they need clubs suited for Tiger... or a bike suited for Lance... or fishing gear suited for the bass pro's...

I'm also a fisherman, and used to be a "professional" fisherman. I've literally cleaned 10's of thousands of fish, and helped people catch 10's of thousands of fish - the internet people would ask what's the " best" fillet knife - and the board experts would guide the newbs into $$$$ blades made of this or that material, with this or that handle type... meanwhile, the "pro's" used $15 fillet knives, and when this advice is offered up on the board - the board people would go nuts. You have to have the $$$$$ fillet knife, everything else is crap. Same for fishing rods, hooks, reels, boats... COOLERS!!!! Only a $500 yeti will keep ice cold!!
Jughed is offline  
Likes For Jughed:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.