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Weight-Weenieism

Old 02-10-24, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Why the hell would I ever want to consider any other bike or rider other than mine when expressing my opinions on brakes?
Read my post. You present your own preferences as UNIVERSAL…As in the post below. You don’t state that disc brakes are unnecessary for you. You state that they are unnecessary.

Originally Posted by smd4
Exactly. Disc brakes are not only heavier, they’re also ugly. Not to mention unnecessary. I’d stack my 7700 rim brakes against discs any day.
You chronically fail to acknowledge that anyone else might ride different bikes and ride in different conditions than you do.

I’m not the first person to point this out to you. You seem incapable of any self-awareness.
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Old 02-10-24, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Read my post. You present your own preferences as UNIVERSAL…As in the post below. You don’t state that disc brakes are unnecessary for you. You state that they are unnecessary.

You chronically fail to acknowledge that anyone else might ride different bikes and ride in different conditions than you do.

I’m not the first person to point this out to you. You seem incapable of any self-awareness.
And your point is? I’m very self-aware.

Am I really required to end everything I post with “in my opinion?” Isn’t that, you know, sort of understood? Listen, if you really need my approval for the equipment you prefer, you have it. Better?
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Old 02-10-24, 04:46 PM
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It takes a pretty high level of intellectual dishonesty to state:

”Disc brakes are unnecessary”

and then pretend it has the same meaning as

”In my opinion, disc brakes are unnecessary for my type of riding”
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Old 02-10-24, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It takes a pretty high level of intellectual dishonesty to state:

”Disc brakes are unnecessary”

and then pretend it has the same meaning as

”In my opinion, disc brakes are unnecessary for my type of riding”
IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO. Here, take a few of these and feel free to place them wherever you see fit.
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Old 02-10-24, 05:36 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
You seem incapable of any self-awareness.
Originally Posted by smd4
And your point is? I’m very self-aware.
I will just leave this here .......
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Old 02-10-24, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Outrider1
Serious question here: It has been apparent and still is, based on some of the posts on this thread, that some folks will spend quite a bit of money to lose what amounts to ounces here and there to have a light bike. How do you folks who consider yourselves 'weight weinees' feel about the advent of hydraulic disc brakes? Just like that, the industry pretty much created a new standard that appears to go against the 'lighter is better' mantra that they emphasized for so many years.

...first a disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been a weight weenie. I weigh, on an average day, 235# at 6'2". And I've never really considered the small weight savings of a pound or so over the entire weight of the bicycle to be significant enough to make me do much of it. That said, I do ride double butted steel tubing frames...which is supposedly an innovation in weight savings from the olden days. And I certainly use aluminum alloy components. But the lightest frame I own, a Columbus FOCO tubed Specialized with a plastic fork and Ksyrium wheels, literally never gets ridden by me.

That seemed like pretty much enough for me. I stopped obsessing over bike weight just before plastic frames started becoming the standard for weight weenies. I do pay attention to weight of my wheels and tires, mostly because the bike feels more responsive under me with more modern box section, alloy rims. But again, in this area, I'm not racing, and plastic rims (especially the go fast deep section ones) appeal little to my needs as a cyclist.

Having said all this, on all the bikes I ride, I have no problem at all locking up my wheels with the rim brakes I use on the road bikes I ride. Modulation doesn't seem to suffer, using them. And it was the subject of some debate in the road racing world for a few years whether disc brakes provided significant advantages to the teams that used them. I realize that the pro peleton is conservative in outlook, on changes like this. But I do think if the disc brake offered a significant competitive advantage in the pro road racing world, those guys would have been all over discs in a year or two.

Since I have recognized the usual suspects are heavily invested in this thread topic, let me again state this is only my own opinion. If you think disc brakes make you a better or faster rider, because of the magnificent stopping power they exhibit, and you're willing to deal with the maintenance of them, more power. But once you lock a wheel and the tire breaks free in a skid, that seems to be the definitive force on stopping...tire and road surface adhesion. How you get to that point seems immaterial to me.

Please, if you disagree, just tell me what's wrong with this description of how a road bike stops. I've had more than enough of accusations of dishonesty in general cycling lately. If you cannot argue in a manner that does not include assuming the moral high ground by calling me a liar, just do us both a favor, and STFU.
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Old 02-10-24, 06:27 PM
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Ok children calm down, yes, disc brakes are superior to rim brakes under most conditions AND they are not necessary,.
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Old 02-10-24, 06:40 PM
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.
Stopping superiority: did rim or disc brakes dominate the 2020 Tour de France...from the pages of Cycling World.

Or just go straight to the pages of Outside, in another Retrogrouch hit piece by Eben Weiss.
Disc Brakes Took Over the Cycling World. Here’s Why That Was a Mistake

Look, I get it, OK ? If you're making and selling this stuff, limiting your product lines can be a great profit enhancement move. Does this mean I'm a Big Bicycle conspiracy theorist ? No, I don't think making money is a conspiracy, whatever you might hear otherwise. But I promised myself I'd give up bleeding brakes when I stopped doing my own disc brake maintenance on the cars a few years back. I'm not enough of a retrogrouch to go back to doing it.

I did once enjoy doing hand brake turns with the car, using the cable emergency brake to break the rear wheels free. But that was long ago.
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Old 02-10-24, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
I'm not a weight weenie, so I had never thought about the weight difference. But you made me wonder so:

Pair of 7700 calipers : ~= 320 g
Pair of Ekar calipers: ~= 240 g.
You only compare the caliper weight? Not the complete braking systems for each? Rotors, levers, beefed up frames and forks? Mounting hardware?
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Old 02-10-24, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...first a disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been a weight weenie. I weigh, on an average day, 235# at 6'2". And I've never really considered the small weight savings of a pound or so over the entire weight of the bicycle to be significant enough to make me do much of it. That said, I do ride double butted steel tubing frames...which is supposedly an innovation in weight savings from the olden days. And I certainly use aluminum alloy components. But the lightest frame I own, a Columbus FOCO tubed Specialized with a plastic fork and Ksyrium wheels, literally never gets ridden by me.

That seemed like pretty much enough for me. I stopped obsessing over bike weight just before plastic frames started becoming the standard for weight weenies. I do pay attention to weight of my wheels and tires, mostly because the bike feels more responsive under me with more modern box section, alloy rims. But again, in this area, I'm not racing, and plastic rims (especially the go fast deep section ones) appeal little to my needs as a cyclist.

Having said all this, on all the bikes I ride, I have no problem at all locking up my wheels with the rim brakes I use on the road bikes I ride. Modulation doesn't seem to suffer, using them. And it was the subject of some debate in the road racing world for a few years whether disc brakes provided significant advantages to the teams that used them. I realize that the pro peleton is conservative in outlook, on changes like this. But I do think if the disc brake offered a significant competitive advantage in the pro road racing world, those guys would have been all over discs in a year or two.

Since I have recognized the usual suspects are heavily invested in this thread topic, let me again state this is only my own opinion. If you think disc brakes make you a better or faster rider, because of the magnificent stopping power they exhibit, and you're willing to deal with the maintenance of them, more power. But once you lock a wheel and the tire breaks free in a skid, that seems to be the definitive force on stopping...tire and road surface adhesion. How you get to that point seems immaterial to me.

Please, if you disagree, just tell me what's wrong with this description of how a road bike stops. I've had more than enough of accusations of dishonesty in general cycling lately. If you cannot argue in a manner that does not include assuming the moral high ground by calling me a liar, just do us both a favor, and STFU.
I can see why you’re so confused. Instead of riding and opining plastic bicycles and components you should try carbon fiber is absolutely amazing. Incredible strength to weight ratio, infinitely adjustable through layup, and state of the art for current cycling technology who knows where the future will take it. Hopefully this clears up your confusion. It will drastically increase your enjoyment of the sport from a riding perspective.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 02-10-24 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 02-10-24, 07:15 PM
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Does he ever deviate from this one theme?
But if you’re not a sponsored professional, might I ask why you are wasting money on carbon rims?
-- Outside, Oct 19, 2023

Moreover, the pro racers who do need carbon fiber bikes get them for free; only the people who don’t need them actually pay for them. This means that, ipso facto, if you’ve purchased a carbon fiber bicycle, you’ve made a mistake.
-- Outside, Jan 30, 2024
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Old 02-10-24, 07:54 PM
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This is fun. Keep it up.
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Old 02-10-24, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
I can see why you’re so confused. Instead of riding and opining plastic bicycles and components you should try carbon fiber is absolutely amazing. Incredible strength to weight ratio, infinitely adjustable through layup, and state of the art for current cycling technology who knows where the future will take it. Hopefully this clears up your confusion. It will drastically increase your enjoyment of the sport from a riding perspective.

...why do you think I've never ridden a plastic bicycle ? Did I say that somewhere ? The god damn things are everywhere now, and all the dealers around me have demo bikes they let people ride. I don't require incredible strength to weight ratio, and I've replaced CF reinforced plastic forks on several bikes that came to me that way, because they were unpleasant to ride.

I think you might be projecting, but I don't know for sure. I know you feel more secure in the knowledge that all plastic bikes come out of molds in factories, that are machined to exacting tolerances.

As I said in that other thread, I'm looking at the future of bike technology taking it into the World of Tomorrow, with auto transmission e-bikes. If you're gonna do it, do it all the way, I say.
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Old 02-10-24, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Does he ever deviate from this one theme?
...I don't know. Maybe you need to read all of what he writes to figure out the answer ? Not gonna do it for you, 'cause you don't read all of what I write either. These are the risks all writers face.
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Old 02-10-24, 08:54 PM
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164 posts so far and no one has cast aspersions on anyone else's platinum cards yet!?
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Old 02-10-24, 08:57 PM
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...BTW, was there anything wrong with my explanation of the way a road bicycle stops, using tire surface adhesion to the road as the limiting factor ?
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Old 02-10-24, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
This is fun. Keep it up.
...thus answering the ultimate question in all these threads:

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Old 02-10-24, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
It will drastically increase your enjoyment of the sport from a riding perspective.
What’s this? A “universal” statement? @Koyote ripped me a new one for something similar. Wonder if he’ll do the same thing here, just to be consistent.

Guessing no.
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Old 02-10-24, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
I can see why you’re so confused. Instead of riding and opining plastic bicycles and components you should try carbon fiber is absolutely amazing. Incredible strength to weight ratio, infinitely adjustable through layup, and state of the art for current cycling technology who knows where the future will take it. Hopefully this clears up your confusion. It will drastically increase your enjoyment of the sport from a riding perspective.

...wait, I just got it, (duhh). So you really believe that carbon fiber reinforced plastics are not (gasp) plastic ? Oh my stars and little jellyfishes. You, sir, are a treat.

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Old 02-10-24, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by McFlyRides
WW starts when weight is prioritized over other important parameters that negatively impact overall performance.

Usually, optimizing for lower weight results in reduced reliability. If a part fails during a race, the marginal gains due to lower weight are no help.

If you were asked to build the lightest bike possible, it really comes down to intended use.

Are you building a race day climbing bike for a light weight pro, or a cobble crusher for a monument contender?
...there was one year (or maybe two years), when True Temper and Trek were linked in the racing world (mid 80's maybe). And True Temper thought they had the whole thing figured out on strength to weight, and frame tubing wall thicknesses. They didn't, really, and the team broke a lot of frames. Trek and True Temper parted ways soon after. Which was a shame, because the bikes they were making and selling to the public were a little heavier, and seemed to work fine, IME.
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Old 02-10-24, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...wait, I just got it, (duhh). So you really believe that carbon fiber reinforced plastics are not (gasp) plastic ? Oh my stars and little jellyfishes. You, sir, are a treat.

Plastics, encompassing a diverse group of synthetic polymers, are organic polymers with a wide range of properties and applications. They are characterized by their malleability and can be molded into various forms.

On the other hand, carbon fiber is a composite material composed primarily of carbon atoms aligned in a specific crystalline structure. It is created through a process of heating precursor materials, such as polyacrylonitrile (PAN) fibers, in an oxygen-deprived environment, resulting in the carbonization of the material. The resulting carbon fibers are then bundled together and often combined with a polymer matrix to form a composite.

Carbon fiber composites exhibit exceptional tensile strength, stiffness, and durability due to the inherent strength of the carbon-carbon bonds. This gives carbon fiber a distinct advantage over plastics, especially in applications where high strength and low weight are critical, such as sports equipment.
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Old 02-10-24, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Plastics, encompassing a diverse group of synthetic polymers, are organic polymers with a wide range of properties and applications. They are characterized by their malleability and can be molded into various forms. The resulting carbon fibers are then bundled together and often combined with a polymer matrix to form a composite.

Carbon fiber composites exhibit exceptional tensile strength, stiffness, and durability due to the inherent strength of the carbon-carbon bonds. This gives carbon fiber a distinct advantage over plastics, especially in applications where high strength and low weight are critical, such as sports equipment.
.
...still wondering why they call them "carbon fiber reinforced plastics". Probably just a marketing gimmick.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Carbon fiber-reinforced polymers (American English), carbon-fibre-reinforced polymers (Commonwealth English), carbon-fiber-reinforced plastics, carbon-fiber reinforced-thermoplastic (CFRP, CRP, CFRTP), also known as carbon fiber, carbon composite, or just carbon, ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon...orced_polymers
And as you say, if you believe you are right, and Wikipedia is wrong, odds are good you are so triggered by the word "plastic", that you immediately follow with another nonsense post. I, OTOH, have moved beyond this petty focus on materials, and am willing to pay more attention to practical use. People build perfectly capable working bicycles from bamboo, for heaven's sake. Why are you so offended by my use of "plastic" ?

Originally Posted by Atlas Bugged
​​​​​​​ The resulting carbon fibers are then bundled together and often combined with a polymer matrix to form a composite.
If you have an example of a carbon fiber reinforced composite bike frame, that does not use a plastic matrix of some sort, I'd be really interested to see it. Otherwise, I'm gonna attribute this thread turn to another vision of the future, where we will all one day ride on bikes made of carbon fiber fabric, that folds up to fit in a shoebox, and can be inflated with helium when required, to make for an even lighter frame. The advantages that CF reinforced plastics have over unreinforced plastics is obvious. That doesn't make them "not plastics". It makes them "better plastics".

For the record, I know what carbon fiber is. I can buy it on Amazon for a variety of uses...all of which require some kind of plastic matrix saturation to be of practical use.

200 X 300 X 1 MM Carbon Fiber Sheets 100% 3K Twill Matte Carbon Fiber Plate
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Old 02-10-24, 11:09 PM
  #173  
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...nothing triggers these guys like calling their lightweight, high tech bicycles and wheel rims "plastic". I'm ashamed, really, because it's such an obvious cheap shot. And someone always tries to refute it.
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Old 02-10-24, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...still wondering why they call them "carbon fiber reinforced plastics". Probably just a marketing gimmick.



And as you say, if you believe you are right, and Wikipedia is wrong, odds are good you are so triggered by the word "plastic", that you immediately follow with another nonsense post. I, OTOH, have moved beyond this petty focus on materials, and am willing to pay more attention to practical use. People build perfectly capable working bicycles from bamboo, for heaven's sake. Why are you so offended by my use of "plastic" ?



If you have an example of a carbon fiber reinforced composite bike frame, that does not use a plastic matrix of some sort, I'd be really interested to see it. Otherwise, I'm gonna attribute this thread turn to another vision of the future, where we will all one day ride on bikes made of carbon fiber fabric, that folds up to fit in a shoebox, and can be inflated with helium when required, to make for an even lighter frame. The advantages that CF reinforced plastics have over unreinforced plastics is obvious. That doesn't make them "not plastics". It makes them "better plastics".

For the record, I know what carbon fiber is. I can buy it on Amazon for a variety of uses...all of which require some kind of plastic matrix saturation to be of practical use.

200 X 300 X 1 MM Carbon Fiber Sheets 100% 3K Twill Matte Carbon Fiber Plate
I see, you're emphasizing the analogy to highlight the predominant material in each case. In that context, the majority of a carbon fiber bicycle is indeed carbon fiber (as much as 90+ percent), much like a steel bicycle is mostly steel. Otherwise I could take the same illogical stance as you and call your steel bicycle a resin and pigment bike.

It's rather amusing how some folks believe tweaking someone's name is the pinnacle of cleverness. It's like they've stumbled upon the secret recipe for wit in the kindergarten playbook. If you think altering a word magically transforms you into a linguistic wizard, perhaps it's time to graduate from the school of juvenile jests and embrace the vast world of mature banter. After all, playing with someone's name is about as sophisticated as building a sandcastle in the intellectual desert.
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Old 02-10-24, 11:24 PM
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CFRP are composite materials. In this case the composite consists of two parts: a matrix and a reinforcement. In CFRP the reinforcement is carbon fiber, which provides its strength. The matrix is usually a thermosetting plastic, such as polyester resin, to bind the reinforcements together.[5] Because CFRPs consist of two distinct elements, the material properties depend on these two elements.

...

Although CFRPs with epoxy have high strength and elastic modulus, the brittle fracture mechanics present unique challenges to engineers in failure detection since failure occurs catastrophically.[8] As such, recent efforts to toughen CFRPs include modifying the existing epoxy material and finding alternative polymer matrix. One such material with high promise is PEEK, which exhibits an order of magnitude greater toughness with similar elastic modulus and tensile strength.[8] However, PEEK is much more difficult to process and more expensive.
...
...also in the FWIW department, I've had and used a CF reinforced plastic kayak paddle for years. It is a jewel, and is undoubtedly the best paddle I ever used. Because in something I'm holding up with my hands, arms, and shoulders for hours at a time, and trying to move quickly in use, it seemed like a better idea. Sadly, it too is plastic.
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