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Disc brakes are great!

Old 02-14-24, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I never touched the hydraulic system. Never changed the fluid, never even opened the reservoir. But for what it’s worth, yes – – never changed the pads or the rotors either.
...what sort of car ? You should do a testimonial for them. You must not need to use them very much. I live in flat , dry, Central Valley California, and I think the best I've ever done was 60k, before the wear sensors started squeaking...usually closer to 40k. But that's in an urban environment, and there are certainly mountains nearby.

Electric cars with regen braking are, of course, in a different category. It's really more of a dual braking system.



Originally Posted by Koyote
This is all incorrect. You must have me confused with someone else.
...my bad. Do you live someplace hilly ?
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Old 02-14-24, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
Will you do mine? They want to charge me $400+ for replacing the pads, so I decided to drive without applying he brakes.
...I have people for this stuff now. $400 is a lot, but I bet yours have all sorts of complications, like ABS. And they'll want to resurface the rotors, even if they are in pretty good shape. There were a couple of reasons I stopped doing my own, and one was ABS. The other was when the guy showed me this way cool machine they have for resurfacing the rotors right on the car, without removing them. I knew I could never afford one of those machines. and I was tired of dragging the rotors over to a machine shop. A couple of times, I admit I just replaced the pads without doing the rotors.

You need someone with higher standards than me to work on your car.
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Old 02-14-24, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote

I've been riding discs on two of my bikes for a total of about 38k miles over the past several years. (7 yrs on one bike, 5 on the other.) I think I've replaced two rotors and perhaps 4-5 sets of pads, which is probably what...? A couple hundred bucks? I spent that much on a new pair of bibshorts that should arrive tomorrow.
...will there now be the customary digression into Bibs vs Regular Shorts ? That might serve well in the march to turning "General" into a vassal state of "Road".
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Old 02-14-24, 12:40 AM
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It's almost like this thread was started by a Civil War re-enactor.

So long rim brakes, we knew thee well.

The rim-brake-versus-disc-brake “argument,” if there ever was one, ended years ago. Rim brakes lost, disc brakes won. While discs have been the standard on mountain bikes since the nineties, the decisive moment came in 2018, when the UCI, the world governing body of cycling, finally allowed them on road bikes. Roadies were the last line of defense for rim brakes on performance bicycles. After that, they quickly began to vanish from the big companies’ offerings across all categories, and today, no matter what kind of bike you’re buying, disc brakes are more or less the standard. Consumers simply expect them, and experts dismiss anyone who continues to look askance at disc brakes, usually labeling them a “retrogrouch.”
Yes, disc brakes are better in certain situations. The same is true of aerobars, disc wheels, and 5-inch wide fat bike tires. But we don’t use those in all conditions, and in a sane world, the disc brake would remain a specialty tool as well. Disc brakes do indeed allow for one-finger braking, but if you value the simple elegance of the bicycle above all else, the only finger they’re giving you is the middle one.
...sane world ?! What ******g planet do you live on, Eben ?
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Old 02-14-24, 12:42 AM
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I ride a QR equipped bicycle with disk brakes. As with all my previous bicycles, I filed down the lawyer lips so the QR functions as it was designed to do. I had the bicycle several years before I read reports of the front disk setup being a danger. I increased the tightness some afterwards. I believe that the incidents of the front wheels slipping out are very few and caused by non cam style QR skewers and operator error or a combination of both. I have the Paul Klampers on my bicycle. The only other bicycle I have that I ride is my Tandem. I have Magura HS66 hydraulic rim brakes on it. The brakes on the Tandem are superior in power and control to the Klampers. I have never had a front wheel come loose on a QR equipped bicycle.
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Old 02-14-24, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
The First World bike industry is in trouble. Post-pandemic inventory overhang and dropping sales. Competition from Asia for direct sales to customers, and new groupsets such as Sensah and LTWOO. Internet sales, on even expensive items such as bikes are becoming ubiquitous and accepted by customers.

What the First World bike industry needs to do:
  • Make bikes difficult to work on for a weekend warrior. Introduce complex proprietary tools for undertaking basic maintenance. Hydraulic discs and electronics are great because they lock most riders back to a shop for what used to be simple maintenance. Internal cable routing: a windfall! It looks kewl and saves 0.001 watts on the road, but it allows a shop to hand a $300 bill to a customer for a stem swap.

  • Introduce new transitory ‘features’ on bikes, like aero fins on 1950s cars. Like suspension elements on road bikes. Or discs, which are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.

  • Change over the fleet: Introduce different dimensional standards which will render the previous generations of bikes obsolete and useless. Like wheel sizes and widths and attachment standards. Plus different bottom bracket standards and cassette systems. Note the success of how the 26” MTB wheel standard was replaced by the 29-er through a rare coordinated and concerted effort by the entire First World bike industry. Then the 27.5” standard had to be introduced because the 29er was a mistake for many riders. Of course, the industry could never ever go back to 26”. Nope.

  • Introduce an integrated supply chain direct from manufacturer to retail customer. Buy up the independents and lock customers into one single brand, particularly for servicing, where the money actually is. There is no money in selling $300 hybrids, but there is profit in selling an expensive bike to a platinum card holder. Then, due to difficult to service proprietary parts, the weekend warrior is locked to you for frequent ‘servicing’ - forever. Basically, a subscription service.

  • In addition to changing the bike fleet over frequently by introducing new ‘standards’, also choke off the supply of replacement parts for bikes over 5 years old. Customer walks into a shop looking for a 10-speed derailleur… “This hasn’t been made in 10 years! We cannot source this. Let me show you some newer bikes!”

  • Hire a cadre of social media sycophants and influencers to rag on anyone or entity who challenges the above strategy.
It’s time to play Dave Mayer bingo:-

weekend warrior
proprietary
kewl
Platinum card
sycophants
influencers

BINGO!
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Old 02-14-24, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It’s time to play Dave Mayer bingo:-

weekend warrior
proprietary
kewl
Platinum card
sycophants
influencers

BINGO!
I have found an error in Dave's logic. AMEX platinum cards are made of stainless steel instead of plastic, making them incredibly heavy by comparison. No self respecting cyclist would ever dare carry such an boat anchor on rides. You'd lose several seconds on even short climbs and you'd be left to watch as your powerful, dedicated, handsome riding buddies disappear over the next crest never to be seen again.
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Old 02-14-24, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Which is not something the end user has to even think about.
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Unless you have bikes that work perfectly fine with rim brakes.
I don’t get your logic here. What is it that you need to think about?
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Old 02-14-24, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
It's obviously a non-issue. But even if I try to take it seriously, I still think it's a non-issue. I drove my last car 154k miles over 12 years and never touched the hydraulic brake system. I suspect a bike with hydraulic brakes would be just fine after forty years of storage.
Line swell is a real thing.

​​​​​​https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...n-shut.993571/
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Old 02-14-24, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed
Line swell is a real thing.

​​​​​​https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...n-shut.993571/
Really scraping the barrel for legit disc brake cons here I see 😂
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Old 02-14-24, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Except the dropouts for front disc brakes aren't made that way. They've been engineered properly.
They are now, after, to use BF veteran framebuilder bulgie's droll phrasing, "the death toll became prohibitive."
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Old 02-14-24, 06:32 AM
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I think round seatposts are greater.
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Old 02-14-24, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Really scraping the barrel for legit disc brake cons here I see 😂
Well if "They" want to debate 40 year storage I know from experience working on vehicles stored very long term that brake lines are a real issue and on rim brakes pads are rocks. I could care less about what type brakes someone has/prefers. These are like chain lube arguments
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Old 02-14-24, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
The First World bike industry is in trouble. Post-pandemic inventory overhang and dropping sales. Competition from Asia for direct sales to customers, and new groupsets such as Sensah and LTWOO. Internet sales, on even expensive items such as bikes are becoming ubiquitous and accepted by customers.

What the First World bike industry needs to do:
  • Make bikes difficult to work on for a weekend warrior. Introduce complex proprietary tools for undertaking basic maintenance. Hydraulic discs and electronics are great because they lock most riders back to a shop for what used to be simple maintenance. Internal cable routing: a windfall! It looks kewl and saves 0.001 watts on the road, but it allows a shop to hand a $300 bill to a customer for a stem swap.

  • Introduce new transitory ‘features’ on bikes, like aero fins on 1950s cars. Like suspension elements on road bikes. Or discs, which are heavy, fussy and unnecessary.

  • Change over the fleet: Introduce different dimensional standards which will render the previous generations of bikes obsolete and useless. Like wheel sizes and widths and attachment standards. Plus different bottom bracket standards and cassette systems. Note the success of how the 26” MTB wheel standard was replaced by the 29-er through a rare coordinated and concerted effort by the entire First World bike industry. Then the 27.5” standard had to be introduced because the 29er was a mistake for many riders. Of course, the industry could never ever go back to 26”. Nope.

  • Introduce an integrated supply chain direct from manufacturer to retail customer. Buy up the independents and lock customers into one single brand, particularly for servicing, where the money actually is. There is no money in selling $300 hybrids, but there is profit in selling an expensive bike to a platinum card holder. Then, due to difficult to service proprietary parts, the weekend warrior is locked to you for frequent ‘servicing’ - forever. Basically, a subscription service.

  • In addition to changing the bike fleet over frequently by introducing new ‘standards’, also choke off the supply of replacement parts for bikes over 5 years old. Customer walks into a shop looking for a 10-speed derailleur… “This hasn’t been made in 10 years! We cannot source this. Let me show you some newer bikes!”

  • Hire a cadre of social media sycophants and influencers to rag on anyone or entity who challenges the above strategy.
I wasn’t even on your lawn.

.
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Old 02-14-24, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
I wore out a pair of Tektro pads on my Globe Live 3, and probably a front disk after about 5 years (they started getting noisy and when I replaced them, the pads were gone-daddy-gone with metal scraping metal.) I swapped the whole set out for Shimano XTR. Perfectly quiet for 8 years so far, longer levers and superior modulation too.
Miles, not years, would be helpful. But 5 years of usage is a lot of riding. The brakes on one of my mountain bikes has, roughly, 2000 miles of mountain bike usage on them and are still going strong. On the other hand, my rim brake equipped touring bike has 4500 miles (over 9 years) on the rubber pads and aren’t showing signs of needing replacing any time soon. And that’s on a bike that gets loaded with gear and my ample carcass and is sent hurtling down lots of hills.

By the way, define “superior modulation”. Everyone and his brother goes throwing that term around but I seriously have no idea what they mean. Every brake I own…every brake!…is easy to control with my being able to put in a little or a lot of effort or anything in between. The only brake I ever owned that was difficult to control the amount of force while braking was the only set of hydraulics I ever owned. A little bit of squeeze or a lot of squeeze gave the same result…a lurching, fork diving, warbling stop right now! They were impossible to control and I’m no neophyte when it comes to using brakes.
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Old 02-14-24, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
By the way, define “superior modulation”. Everyone and his brother goes throwing that term around but I seriously have no idea what they mean. Every brake I own…every brake!…is easy to control with my being able to put in a little or a lot of effort or anything in between. The only brake I ever owned that was difficult to control the amount of force while braking was the only set of hydraulics I ever owned. A little bit of squeeze or a lot of squeeze gave the same result…a lurching, fork diving, warbling stop right now! They were impossible to control and I’m no neophyte when it comes to using brakes.
If you've used brakes with inferior modulation, then how can you not understand the meaning of "superior modulation"?
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Old 02-14-24, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...in fairness, Koyote lives in the frozen North. There wasn't a lot of topography in MN when I lived there. But still, that's quite a feat, if true. I've changed out a lot of disc pads on cars, and if there's a way to do it without touching the hydraulic system, I'd love to hear about it. I will pass the tip along to my maintenance staff.
Not sure what you mean by "touching" the hydraulic system. You don't have to open the bleeders, if that's what you mean. At least not on anything I've heard about.

fwiw, I bought an S-10 Blazer with 66K miles and replaced pads and rear shoes, including rebuilding the rear wheel cylinders. Around 200K I did it again and there was still pad life left but the rear cylinders were sticking.
Bought a Trailblazer with 110K and put front pads, rear were still ok. Just checked them Friday @205K and fronts look good but rears are getting close. It has a lot to do with how I drive. I've never replaced a rotor on any car I've had.
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Old 02-14-24, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
They are now, after, to use BF veteran framebuilder bulgie's droll phrasing, "the death toll became prohibitive."
...as a member of the experimental control group, I appreciate the marketing department's concern for my well being.
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Old 02-14-24, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by big john
Not sure what you mean by "touching" the hydraulic system. You don't have to open the bleeders, if that's what you mean. At least not on anything I've heard about.
...I think I was talking about adding fluid to the reservoirs, as the pads work down farther into their positions into the slave cylinders. And the difficulty with pushing the pistons back out to a position where you can then replace the pads. Maybe I'm missing something, but that was much more easily done by removing he reservoir cap on the master cylinder...no ?

Originally Posted by big john
fwiw, I bought an S-10 Blazer with 66K miles and replaced pads and rear shoes, including rebuilding the rear wheel cylinders. Around 200K I did it again and there was still pad life left but the rear cylinders were sticking.
Bought a Trailblazer with 110K and put front pads, rear were still ok. Just checked them Friday @205K and fronts look good but rears are getting close. It has a lot to do with how I drive. I've never replaced a rotor on any car I've had.
...I'm the last person to argue any sort of universal use case for brake wear. I just found the mileage claim quite remarkable, in this case of "my car brakes lasted this long, so I'm not at all worried about bicycle disc brakes." NOthing much to see here, I think.
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Old 02-14-24, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
There's been a lot of argument about disc brakes lately, and it feels like both sides talk past each other a bit -- maybe one side more so than the other.
... any of you naysayers think my reasons for running disc brakes (on two of my five bikes) are stupid, ill-informed, whatever, let's hear it right here. I'm eager to process your logic.

​​​​​​
Originally Posted by Koyote
If you've used brakes with inferior modulation, then how can you not understand the meaning of "superior modulation"?


...this actually took longer than I thought it would.
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Old 02-14-24, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I think I was talking about adding fluid to the reservoirs, as the pads work down farther into their positions into the slave cylinders. And the difficulty with pushing the pistons back out to a position where you can then replace the pads. Maybe I'm missing something, but that was much more easily done by removing he reservoir cap on the master cylinder...no ?



...I'm the last person to argue any sort of universal use case for brake wear. I just found the mileage claim quite remarkable, in this case of "my car brakes lasted this long, so I'm not at all worried about bicycle disc brakes." NOthing much to see here, I think.
Yes, remove the cap, you should check the fluid anyway. And people wear car brakes depending on the way they drive. I had a friend who drove with both feet in his Accord. It was either accelerate or brake, no steady speed, ever. He got about 4K miles from his front pads.

And I would not equate brake wear on a car to brake wear on bikes. I am very easy on my car brakes but I go through bicycle brakes quickly, depending on how much mountain riding I do. The last rear rim I replaced on my road bike (rim brakes) was bent by a pothole before the brake track got too thin but the one before that had a low spot from brake track wear. I was going through a set of rear pads a couple times per year.

I've been on 2 rides when riders had the brake track blow off of a rim brake road bike.

When I rode my rim brake mtb in the mountains the front rim would start thumping after months of wet, sandy rides. Replaced a few rims in those days. I remember doing a long ride with 1000s of feet of descending and many water crossings and the lever was at the grip by the time I got to the bottom.

I bought my current disc brake mtb in 2018. When I was doing a lot of descending I put new pads on more than once per year. I've replace the rear rotor twice and the front once.
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Old 02-14-24, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
By the way, define “superior modulation”. Everyone and his brother goes throwing that term around but I seriously have no idea what they mean. Every brake I own…every brake!…is easy to control with my being able to put in a little or a lot of effort or anything in between. The only brake I ever owned that was difficult to control the amount of force while braking was the only set of hydraulics I ever owned. A little bit of squeeze or a lot of squeeze gave the same result…a lurching, fork diving, warbling stop right now! They were impossible to control and I’m no neophyte when it comes to using brakes.
Superior modulation = more like a dimmer switch than an on/off switch. I'm a rim-brake fan, but those Shimano XTRs (with the longer levers, which were hard to find) have a motorcycle-like, broader range of feel to them. If you squeeze the lever 44.9%, you get 44.9% braking force. The OEM Tektros were more like an on/off switch.

Edit: If you're diligent, rim brakes can feel like this; just have to periodically clean the rims with rubbing alcohol (without getting it on the tires,) and lightly scuff the brake pads with fine-grit sandpaper. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

Last edited by calamarichris; 02-14-24 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 02-14-24, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer


...this actually took longer than I thought it would.
The quote you referenced seems like koyote was saying others were insulting and attacking him.
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Old 02-14-24, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
By the way, define “superior modulation”. Everyone and his brother goes throwing that term around but I seriously have no idea what they mean.
Its better modulation when compared to other setups they have used.
Seems pretty easy to define. You wont like how it is defined or used though because it is feel driven and not data driven. Subjectivity seems to be your kryptonite.
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Old 02-14-24, 12:04 PM
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