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Need 7 speed chain help!!!

Old 02-25-24, 08:25 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by kcjc
And you could be wrong if that was used with a rear-suspension bike or 1x. If compression is not accounted for, both would be in the wrong. You should be able to figure out the 1x for yourself. Small-small basically comes up with the same chain length as long as your rear derailleur b-screw is adjusted correctly and within the manufacturer's limits on derailleur capacity.
The unstated assumption in your response is that the bicycle has a rear derailleur that has the correct takeup for the gear range. 1xs aren't usually as bad as triples, depending on the rear range. The B-screw affects this, but doesn't fix a mismatch. Those of us who commonly deal with bikes whose original equipment has been changed out don't have the luxury of of this assumption. Measuring big-big means it'll at least access all the cogs.

Also, at rest nearly all rear suspensions are at maximum extension, so the big-big is appropriate.
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Old 02-25-24, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur
Also, at rest nearly all rear suspensions are at maximum extension, so the big-big is appropriate.
Just the opposite. Sizing the chain at maximum extension gives you too much chain and risks of dropping the chain when compressed. You size the chain based on full compression.
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Old 02-25-24, 08:52 PM
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Check out these two videos. I'll bet all your questions will be answered


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Old 02-25-24, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kcjc
When did I say it's the only way? We each have a preference, but you are attacking mine with misinformation.
Can you point to the misinformation I offered?
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Old 02-26-24, 05:14 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by kcjc

It doesn't matter if you stay within the manufacturer's limits on derailleur capacity. Going outside of it can lead to damage, and it's called user error, whether by choice or ignorance.
Originally Posted by kcjc

It's just a different way of sizing the chain and doesn't guarantee damage to the bike.
This is going in circles.

As I and multiple others have patiently explained to you multiple times, sizing a chain based on only small-small rings will damage the drivetrain if the procedure is inadvertently carried out with a derailleur that does not have sufficient capacity for the fitted gears. The small-small sizing procedure would only avoid damage if you assume the installed parts are correctly compatible. Any mechanic who works on unknown bikes doesn't have the luxury of that assumption.

You can take this as an opportunity to learn something new, or... not. I and others can put a cake in front of your face, but we can't force you to eat it.

For anyone else reading this thread, don't listen to this guy. You've been warned, so don't come back here complaining when something bad happens.

Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 02-26-24, 08:07 AM
  #31  
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Maybe I missed something. Does the OP have rear suspension? I don't have any bikes with suspension, and I've always sized my chains based on big/big plus a link. I'm usually pushing or slightly exceeding the published limits of the rear derailleur, and it's much more important (to me) to not destroy my derailleur/hanger/dropout than it is to worry about my chain having too much slack in the small/small gear..
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Old 02-26-24, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
This is going in circles.
Which you seem to insist upon.
Originally Posted by Yan
As I and multiple others have patiently explained to you multiple times, sizing a chain based on only small-small rings will damage the drivetrain if the procedure is inadvertently carried out with a derailleur that does not have sufficient capacity for the fitted gears. The small-small sizing procedure would only avoid damage if you assume the installed parts are correctly compatible. Any mechanic who works on unknown bikes doesn't have the luxury of that assumption.
Again, you are wrong. It is one of the many methods used to size a chain, and they all consider what is on the bike. Next, what do you think would happen if installed parts are not correctly "compatible" with a correctly sized chain? Would your dreaded damage happen when getting into the big-big combination? Hint: your worries never go away if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Lastly, any mechanic who doesn't evaluate based on the components that are on the bike is not worth their salt. This seems to be something you don't know anything about.
Originally Posted by Yan
You can take this as an opportunity to learn something new, or... not.
Dido
Originally Posted by Yan
I and others can put a cake in front of your face, but we can't force you to eat it.

For anyone else reading this thread, don't listen to this guy. You've been warned, so don't come back here complaining when something bad happens.
Funny, Art's Cyclery and many others are just fine about it, yet you and two others here seem to insist that you know everything.
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Old 02-26-24, 09:44 AM
  #33  
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Madeupname Welcome to Bike Forums. You have received a lot of solid advice that has been thoroughly debated. Hopefully, you can glean the information you need from the posts. Do not hesitate to ask other questions if you are not sure and do not let the debate and bickering in the thread of who is right stop you participating in the thread.

To the members debating and arguing in the thread, please stop. We do not see how it is helping a new member get the information he wants or for that matter will ever want to post again in BF. Please note when we have new members and try to be more welcoming. Thank you.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:06 AM
  #34  
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New members should not be provided with terrible information that can destroy their drivetrain. That's not very welcoming.

Originally Posted by kcjc
what do you think would happen if installed parts are not correctly "compatible" with a correctly sized chain? Would your dreaded damage happen when getting into the big-big combination?
If the chain is sized using the big-big method, no damage is possible. If you happened to have a derailleur with insufficient capacity, the worst that could possibly happen is that the derailleur would simply be unable to fully take up the slack when you shift from the big-big into the small-small gear. At that point you can easily address the problem.

This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.

Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.

You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers? All three major manufacturers, Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo technical documentation all indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.

Shimano documentation specifying large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length

Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage."

SRAM documentation specifying large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf

Edit: found the Campag documentation too.

Campagnolo documentation specifying large-large method:
https://www.campagnolo.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-campagnoloLibrary/default/dw347f5c1d/pdf/035_2461_Technical%2520manual_13s_Ekar_chain_Campagnolo_Rev00_09_20%2520ENG.pdf


Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo vs you and Art's Cyclery. With all due respect to you and Art's Cyclery, but

Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
If the chain is sized using the big-big method, no damage is possible. If you happened to have a derailleur with insufficient capacity, the worst that could possibly happen is that the derailleur would simply be unable to fully take up the slack when you shift from the big-big into the small-small gear. At that point you can easily address the problem.

This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.

Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.

You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers themselves? Both Shimano and SRAM technical documentation indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.

Shimano documentation using large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length

Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage. ​​​​​"

SRAM documentation using large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf
Comprehension isn't your strong suit?! It doesn't cover if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Heck, by your logic using the exact number of links of the existing chain that came out of the factory to determine the replacement chain length is not appropriate. Stop with your silliness.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:20 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by kcjc
Comprehension isn't your strong suit?! It doesn't cover if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Heck, by your logic using the exact number of links of the existing chain that came out of the factory to determine the replacement chain length is not appropriate. Stop with your silliness.
​​​​​​
Originally Posted by kcjc
Again, you are wrong.
It seems that Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo disagree with you.

Pardon me for choosing them instead of you, a random nobody.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
​​​​​​


It seems that Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo disagree with you.

Pardon me for choosing them instead of you, a random nobody.
Says the random somebody who lacks reading comprehension. Try rereading the instructions and not cherry-picking what suits your unsupported position this time.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kcjc
Comprehension isn't your strong suit?! It doesn't cover if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Heck, by your logic using the exact number of links of the existing chain that came out of the factory to determine the replacement chain length is not appropriate. Stop with your silliness.
What youíre missing here is that EVEN IF YOU EXCEED THE DERAILLEURíS STATED CAPACITY, sizing the chain using large/large does not have the capacity for damage that the small/small does. That is the crucial difference for the OP in this case, who may or may not have the stock setup on their bike.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kcjc
Says the random somebody who lacks reading comprehension. Try rereading the instructions and not cherry-picking what suits your unsupported position this time.
The Shimano, SRAM, and Campag instructions don't mention your small-small method. There's no cherry picking. It's not possible to cherry pick if it's not mentioned at all. You know why they don't mention it? Because it's a terrible method that can damage bikes.

"Unsupported position"??? It's only the position of all three major bike component manufacturers. Yes, VERY "unsupported".

Insulting others about reading comprehension is just juvenile.

You want to argue with me, ok. Now you're arguing against the manufacturer technical documentation. This is ridiculous.

Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bboy314
I would consider telling someone to size a chain based on the small ring/small cog combo, without knowing anything else about their setup, misinformation or at least bad advice.
Originally Posted by bboy314
Can you point to the misinformation I offered?
You have a short memory
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Old 02-26-24, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kcjc
You have a short memory
Oh great, now insulting other members' memory too.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
The Shimano, SRAM, and Campag instructions don't mention your small-small method. There's no cherry picking. It's not possible to cherry pick if it's not mentioned at all. You know why they don't mention it? Because it's a terrible method that can damage bikes.

Insulting others about reading comprehension is just juvenile.

You want to argue with me, ok. Now you're arguing against the manufacturer technical documentation. This is ridiculous.
You should take your own advice. Your continued use of appealing to authority fallacy and hypocrisy has gotten you nowhere.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:43 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by kcjc
You have a short memory
I guess my eyesight is as bad as my memory, Iím still not seeing the misinformation hereÖ
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Old 02-26-24, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by bboy314
I guess my eyesight is as bad as my memory, Iím still not seeing the misinformation hereÖ
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." Sorry, I can't and wouldn't help you on that one.
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Old 02-26-24, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kcjc
You should take your own advice. Your continued use of appealing to authority fallacy and hypocrisy has gotten you nowhere.
Today I learned that the Shimano, SRAM, and Campag tech docs are all "fallacies".

Any technical documentation that disagrees with the godly genius of kcjc is a "fallacy".

Enough of this. Feel free to get in the last word if it soothes your angst about every manufacturer disagreeing with you. Peace out.

Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 02-26-24, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Today I learned that the Shimano, SRAM, and Campag tech docs are "fallacies".

Any technical documentation that disagrees with the godly genius of kcjc is a "fallacy".

Enough of this. Feel free to get in the last word if soothes your angst about every manufacturer disagreeing with you. Peace out.
Wow, you really have no understanding of what logical fallacies are. Figures.
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Old 02-26-24, 12:21 PM
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Old 02-26-24, 12:26 PM
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Both you guys leave the thread immediately. That’s kcjc and yan, do not post further in the thread.

Thread reopens in 15 minutes.
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