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All 8 speed groups worked well?

Old 02-27-24, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.

​​​​​​If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.

I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
Funny you should say that. Last week I was doing some clean out in my basement. I still have my Cannondale T 700 from 1998, although itís not rideable. I had remembered it as a 9 speed, but I counted the sprockets, and itís only 8 speed.

I rode that thing 10,000 miles fully loaded between 5/99 and 7/00. Lots of hilly miles in all sorts of conditions while doing very little maintenance. The drivetrain rarely complained. The biggest bummer was the day I couldnít get into my smallest cog after spinning out at 32.5 mph with a killer tailwind on the Montana High Line. Too much gunk had built up after some nasty weather days, including snow crossing the North Cascades Highway and Sherman Pass in WA.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
I don't understand your point either. But it seems we do agree that the 8 speed groups out there already are of adequate quality... what ever quality is.
Nope. That is not what I meant. Yup, you clearly don't understand my point!
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Old 02-27-24, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Here are the number of shifts required to get from the big-big combo to the small-small combo in a few different setups:

1x13: 12 shifts
2x12: 12 shifts
2x11: 11 shifts
3x10: 11 shifts

Not much difference ...
You didn't include 3x 7,8 or 9 there. The main advantage is you can shift the front twice and maybe1 or 2 and cover most every thing either way. That's important when the terrain is going up and down constantly. For instance, I keep all my bikes at my place of business. I get my automobiles serviced at a place 3ish miles from my office. I drop the car off and ride a bike back, then reverse it for the pick up. About 500 yards from my office on that route, there's a hill. I have to use all my range, no matter what speed of bike I'm on to go over that hill then shift back going down the other side. After that, it's flat all the way to the auto service center. I shift maybe once or twice for the duration after that. The first time I rode it was on an indexed bike. I'm thinking this sucks. All this shifting just to get up and over this short hill. On the return trip, and every one since then is on a friction bike. On a tri more than a few years ago, there was a short steep hill right before the turn around. I was on the big ring all the way to that hill. Hit the base of the hill and waited for the grade to take effect. Then I shifted the front twice and rolled up the hill. I don't know what rear cog I was on and didn't care. At the top, I went around the cone, shifted the front twice again the other way and rolled back down the hill. I stayed on the big ring the rest of the way. You can't do that with a 1 or 2X. For me it was a problem with Shimano brifters. Towards the end of an all day ride the muscles in my right forearm would get so tight, I couldn't squeeze the brake lever. Non Shimano brifters have helped a lot. The same thing happens If I spend a lot of time using ratchet wrenches.

Last edited by seypat; 02-27-24 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:48 PM
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I have a couple of half marathons coming up in March. This past Sunday I was preparing by running out/back loops on a route and using my car as a SAG. About 3 miles out, then 3 more back to the car. Each loop was like running from one side of a bowl to the other then back again. Lots of 200-300 yard short steepish rollers/hills. At the 12 mile mark I had over 2000ft of climbing. Finished the 13.1 running laps along the school's bus loop. Same scenario if I'm riding a bike on that route. The triple's going to save me a lot of shifting because I can shift the front twice if I need to and go from there and a friction bike will save me even more over an indexed bike.

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Old 02-27-24, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hybridbkrdr
I heard that comment in a Youtube video where some cyclists were comparing Shimano, SRAM and Campy. Then someone said that all the 8 speed groups worked great. If that's the case, wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
This discussion is exclusive to the Bike Forums, akin to a gathering of seasoned farmers fondly reminiscing about the charm of the "three on the tree" transmission. In the realm of cycling, the evolution of technology has brought about awe-inspiring advancements, particularly in the realm of 12-speed systems. These cutting-edge systems have transformed the cycling experience, offering unprecedented precision and efficiency.

Much like the farmers who cherished the simplicity of their bygone era, some may resist embracing the new 12-speed systems, perhaps rooted in a sense of nostalgia or comfort with the familiar. However, the consensus among enthusiasts is overwhelmingly positive; the benefits of these modern systems are too remarkable to ignore.

The allure of the 12-speed systems lies in their seamless gear transitions, enhanced versatility across various terrains, and an overall improvement in performance. Cyclists are reveling in the ability to conquer challenging routes with greater ease, thanks to the increased gear range. The technology has opened doors to new possibilities and elevated the cycling experience to new heights.

While acknowledging the sentimental value attached to traditional setups, the cycling community is unmistakably moving forward, embracing the transformative potential of the 12-speed systems. It's a testament to the continuous innovation in the world of cycling, where enthusiasts eagerly adopt advancements that push the boundaries of what is possible on two wheels. In this dynamic landscape, there's a shared enthusiasm for progress, with an understanding that the future holds even more exhilarating developments for cyclists worldwide.

(Thanks ChatGPT)

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Old 02-27-24, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
You didn't include 3x 7,8 or 9 there.
Okay, let's include those:

2x10: 10 shifts
3x9: 10 shifts

2x9: 9 shifts
3x8: 9 shifts

2x8: 8 shifts
3x7: 8 shifts

Still, not a major difference.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:09 PM
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.
...I eagerly anticipate all the exhilaration. There's little enough exhilaration in the world today.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Okay, let's include those:

2x10: 10 shifts
3x9: 10 shifts

2x9: 9 shifts
3x8: 9 shifts

2x8: 8 shifts
3x7: 8 shifts

Still, not a major difference.
You have to go back/count the other way as well. It adds up over a long ride.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:35 PM
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This is the route for one of the halfs I mentioned in a previous post. The part that crosses the James on Huguenot Rd and goes along the south side of the river until the bridge at Westover Hills is one of the signature bike routes in the Richmond, VA area. If you expand /move the map either way, you can see the full route. You get onto Riverside Dr. somewhere and ride east to start on upper Rverside Dr at the connection with the Lee Bridge.You then ride west along Riverside Dr past the Huguenot Bridge to Cherokee Rd. Stay on Cherokee Rd to Old Gun Rd west and climb Old Gun Rd all the way to Robious Rd. Turn around then and go back to where you came from. It's a very scenic ride. If you are in the area make sure to do it if you can. Old Gun Rd gets it's name from an old Civil War cannon/battery that sits next to the road on the east end overlooking the river. I hope that's not too political for the thread.

https://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/5113525486/

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Old 02-27-24, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
You have to go back/count the other way as well. It adds up over a long ride.
Count the other way? It's the same number of shifts to go from the big-big combo to the small-small combo as it is to go from the small-small to the big-big.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:42 PM
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The older 8 speed groupsets were fine, except the FD shifting to the big chain ring was not as refined as with later cranksets. You have to maintain pressure on the shift paddle until it finishes the shift. The 9 speed cranksets had better ramps and pins and you could mostly just click it and it will shift. The 10 speed cranksets have even better ramps and pins, and were the final evolution as far as FD shifting was concerned. The newest 8 speed groupsets most likely incorporated all the lessons learned.
The other thing to pay attention to, is ergonomics. Back in the early 90ís, in the early days of the brifters, the shape of the hood was not particularly ergonomic. Once again with each succeeding generation, the hood area improved and became flatter and longer , and more continuous with the ramp of the drop bar. By the time the 10 speed generation came along the hoods were perfectly parallel to the ground and continuous with the ramps. The latest 8 speed Claris brifters have absorbed this lesson and ergonomically they are much better than the old Dura Ace or 600 brifters from the 90ís. They now have hidden shift cables instead of the exposed shift cables of the 8-10 speed classic groupsets.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:44 PM
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A lot is preference. While not exactly the same, 8 speed automatic transmissions offer performance and better fuel economy. CVT transmissions are probably better, but I've never cared for them.

As far as I know there is no passenger/sports car comes with an 8 speed manual transmission. Can't imagine using one as a grocery getter.

As far as bikes, 12 speed, and 13 speed, excel with 1x setups. If you can get the top end and the range for the terrain, nothing is better. Running a 10/11-36 with a 46t ring probably covers most anything. Especially in comparison to the traditional 13-28 with a 52/42 crank.

Back to cars, no one would drive a split shift passenger car, hats off to Mitsubishi. But doubles, and in the older set, triples, abound. For me it is not nostalgia, it is a marginal benefit. My younger self would be all over a 1x12. My older self just adds a small ring and a larger cog.

John
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Old 02-27-24, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Count the other way? It's the same number of shifts to go from the big-big combo to the small-small combo as it is to go from the small-small to the big-big.
Yes, you go up then you go down the other side, and go back through the gears again. Each time you have to do it the reduction in shifts from the 3x/less gears grows. So, over an all day ride or weekend trip when your shifting is in the many 100s or 1000s, it becomes important, at least to me. With Shimano brifters, each time I have to hit the brake lever to shift, it's like using one of these. The movement uses the same set of muscles.

https://us.shein.com/Adjustable-Hand...iABEgKQAPD_BwE

Last edited by seypat; 02-27-24 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Yes, you go up then you go down the other side, and each time you have to do it the reduction in shifts from the 3x/less gears grows.
You're arguing against reality. There is no significant reduction in the number of shifts to "get from one end of the range to the other" with 2x and 3x setups.
Originally Posted by seypat
So, over an all day ride or weekend trip when your shifting is in the many 100s or 1000s, it becomes important, at least to me.
I doubt anyone is shifting through their full gear range "many 100s or 1000s" of times in one day.
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Old 02-27-24, 02:10 PM
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Quantifying the ergonomic load of shifting by counting total gear steps between the ends of a setup sounds like a joke someone would make about meeting Robert McNamara on a bike ride.
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Old 02-27-24, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
You're arguing against reality. There is no significant reduction in the number of shifts to "get from one end of the range to the other" with 2x and 3x setups.

I doubt anyone is shifting through their full gear range "many 100s or 1000s" of times in one day.
I think the last time I saw someone quote a number on a long ride on BF it was in the 900s. I could be wrong. All the people with electronic should be able to dig that data up and find out how many times they shift on those epic century rides. It's probably more than you think. How many did you qoute for a 12 speed above? If you have to go through your entire range once and back again to where you started that's 24. If it's only halfway, that's still 12. It adds up quickly.
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Old 02-27-24, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think the last time I saw someone quote a number on BR it was in the 900s.
That was the total number of individual shifts, not the number of times shifting through the full gear range.
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Old 02-27-24, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
That was the total number of individual shifts, not the number of times shifting through the full gear range.
Yep, that's 900 shifts. I misread your post. But way less with the 3X/less gears. It might not be important to some, but is to me. Now gears in general, important. If I had to ride a single speed, it's doubtful I could ride a bike for over 50 miles to quote a random number no matter my shape. It's for the same reason that I try to reduce the shifting on my right hand. If my legs have to pedal the whole way, under constant load, no matter the intensity of the load, they will fatigue and cramp. That's life.

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Old 02-27-24, 02:28 PM
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From my experience, I found the rear DA 7410 shifted perfectly. Once dialed in, of course.
The front derailleur - as somebody pointed out, not so much so. Regardless, everything worked better than the downtube variety.
Lots of sturdy metals in those shifters, brakes, and stock cassettes. Durability comes at a weighty price.
Glad I went the Shimano route those many years ago. Never liked Campy's thumb lever.
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Old 02-27-24, 03:47 PM
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My wife recently started riding a bike with a Shimano Claris 2x8 speed group. Claris probably isn't considered high quality, probably bottom of the barrel, but so far (several months several hundred miles) it shifts crisply and accurately every time and stays in tune.
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Old 02-27-24, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
not a fan, and I agree. and the same can be said of amateur cyclists purchasing carbon fiber "super bikes" with electronic 12 speed shifting.
Are you implying that someone who simply buys a CF superbike for the fun of owning a "superbike" and no other reason is somehow unworthy of your respect?
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Old 02-27-24, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
My wife recently started riding a bike with a Shimano Claris 2x8 speed group. Claris probably isn't considered high quality, probably bottom of the barrel, but so far (several months several hundred miles) it shifts crisply and accurately every time and stays in tune.
I set up my wife's road bike with Claris shifters, Tiagra FD and XT RD (12-34). Shifters are fine. No issues with trim. Even if the throw is a bit long, never a problem.

Not impressed with the Claris brakes. 90's 105 double pivot are better.

John

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Old 02-27-24, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Are you implying that someone who simply buys a CF superbike for the fun of owning a "superbike" and no other reason is somehow unworthy of your respect?
Heh. Reminds me of 1993, when I bought a unique looking Guerciotti. Columbus TSX with a chrome plated fork. Built with Shimano 600 STI. IIRC, Mavic MA40 rims. Flite saddle. I was in the back talking to the mechanic who built it while the manager took it up front. When I went to pay, the manager told me that a customer had asked whether I ďdeserved that bike.Ē I was paying for it, so I deserved it.
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Old 02-27-24, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hybridbkrdr
I heard that comment in a Youtube video where some cyclists were comparing Shimano, SRAM and Campy. Then someone said that all the 8 speed groups worked great. If that's the case, wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
The 8-speed groups did work great. I've owned or ridden the first gen of road bikes with STI shifters (Dura-Ace and 600), and first-gen Campy Ergopower, both 8-speed. The shifting was and still is flawless, as in accurate, quick, and precise. The naysayers will have not either used this gear, or have used it with 20-year old cables and housing, and a worn-out chain and cassette. Or shifters gummed up with 20 years of road grime and sweat, which could be flushed out in minutes with a spritz of the right product.

The dominant force in the bike industry is to constantly be developing and promoting the Next Big Thing, which will cause customer bike turnover. An easy variant of this drive for obsolescence within the innovation-poor bike industry is to add a cog to the cassette every 7 years or so, rendering all previous bikes obsolete and worthless. So now we're add 12 or 13 cogs, when this sorry little game was passed diminishing returns at 9 cogs.

If you want a highly functional road drivetrain for terrain that includes hills, look to 3 x 8 systems. Very wide gear range with smaller cog jumps, and less shifting needed. For 90% of the time you'll be in the middle ring. Climbing: in the granny gear. Descending or a tail wind: the big ring.
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Old 02-27-24, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
And before someone comes on and says, "why would you want a triple when you can get the same range out of a 1 or 2x?" If you need to get to either end of your range, there's less overall shifting with the 3X. With all those single cog steps in a 11/12/13 rear, you have to do a lot of shifting to get from one end of the range to the other. I do understand the clearance advantages with a 1X/tiny chainring on MTBs, but for me, on a roadie, no to 1x.
I've only cared about shift counts a couple times in my life.

Towards a 12 hour MTB race my right forearm began to dread shifting. The last couple of laps I pretty much only shifted the front derailleur. I sure was glad I had a triple at this point, and to think I ALMOST brought my 1x bike. That woulda been brutal, especially with the one-cog-per press upshifts. OOOF.
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