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All 8 speed groups worked well?

Old 02-27-24, 07:11 AM
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All 8 speed groups worked well?

I heard that comment in a Youtube video where some cyclists were comparing Shimano, SRAM and Campy. Then someone said that all the 8 speed groups worked great. If that's the case, wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
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Old 02-27-24, 08:18 AM
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I disagree

I did not find the Shimano Sora ST-3303 to work all that well...

Sora ST-3303 = no trim?
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Old 02-27-24, 08:22 AM
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Why do you think the current 8 speed groups aren't good enough? Would you buy a 8 speed bike with a super great 8 speed group on it when you could get a 12 speed Di2 or eTap SRAM bike for the same price?
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Old 02-27-24, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Why do you think the current 8 speed groups aren't good enough? Would you buy a 8 speed bike with a super great 8 speed group on it when you could get a 12 speed Di2 or eTap SRAM bike for the same price?
I doubt they would be the same price, so you're kind of setting up a false comparison--ok unless it's this: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...ar-derailleur/ . but, here, the exception that proves the rule answers your question: in the case of the RH derailleur, we can see that there are in fact people who bought that, and the total cost, factoring in that you have to get your frame modified, is comparable to an electronic 12 speed.

but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
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Old 02-27-24, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hybridbkrdr
I heard that comment in a Youtube video where some cyclists were comparing Shimano, SRAM and Campy. Then someone said that all the 8 speed groups worked great. If that's the case, wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
out of curiosity, was the "someone" referring to present day 8 speed groups or past 8 speed groups working great?

the distinction is important because 8 speed is now associated with cheap groups, but that wasn't the case in the 90s. 8 speed 600 Ultegra worked great, I would agree, but it was a high-end group.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
I doubt they would be the same price, so you're kind of setting up a false comparison--ok unless it's this: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...ar-derailleur/ . but, here, the exception that proves the rule answers your question: in the case of the RH derailleur, we can see that there are in fact people who bought that, and the total cost, factoring in that you have to get your frame modified, is comparable to an electronic 12 speed.

but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
It's a construct for illustrative purposes. I'm not going to argue whether a better quality 8 speed group would be as expensive as the new groups with 12 speeds.

The current 8 speed groups shift well enough when adjusted correctly. And they last long enough. So what endearing thing will make them more quality for them? What ever that thing is, it's likely to cost more. So if I have a 8 speed group that has qualities that put its price up at the level of the groups with more speeds, I'm buying the bike that has the group with more speeds on it.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:03 AM
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I bought my daughter a Specialized Sirrus in 2009, it has 8 speed Altus,
Other than a bent derailleur hanger, (not the derailleurs fault) it has worked fine with minimal maintenance, and still does.
The chain lasts forever (comparatively.
For those who don't need close ratios/small steps, they are fine.
"Back in the day" ten speed meant something very different, and we still rode on the same roads and up the same hillls.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:30 AM
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There's nothing wrong with 8sp. A couple of years ago, I did some hill riding in Ireland and the only road bike I could rent had low-end 8sp Shimano - 11-34, so the jumps between the gears were monstrous. I wasn't wild about the choice, but half-way through the first day, the number of gears ceased to matter - and the 34:34 low gear was a godsend!
However, "More is Better" is Marketing 101, be it megapixels in digital cameras, meters of water resistance in diving watches, or gears on bicycles. The 8sp that was perfectly fine a month ago is suddenly obsolete, and you need 9sp (or so you're told), or you'll....die or something.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
It's a construct for illustrative purposes. I'm not going to argue whether a better quality 8 speed group would be as expensive as the new groups with 12 speeds.

The current 8 speed groups shift well enough when adjusted correctly. And they last long enough. So what endearing thing will make them more quality for them? What ever that thing is, it's likely to cost more. So if I have a 8 speed group that has qualities that put its price up at the level of the groups with more speeds, I'm buying the bike that has the group with more speeds on it.
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.

​​​​​​If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.

I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
I doubt they would be the same price, so you're kind of setting up a false comparison--ok unless it's this: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...ar-derailleur/ . but, here, the exception that proves the rule answers your question: in the case of the RH derailleur, we can see that there are in fact people who bought that, and the total cost, factoring in that you have to get your frame modified, is comparable to an electronic 12 speed.

but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
That RH derailleur is the living proof of the fact that idiots are easily parted with their money. Actually the entire company, starting with the historic French name stolen by a modern American company that has nothing to do with France, just stinks of cringe worthy marketing snake oil. I get second hand cringe embarrassment just reading the stuff on their site. And in reality their tires are all made by Panaracer.

Sorry just in case anyone here is a super fan. No maliciousness toward you intended.
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Old 02-27-24, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.

​​​​​​If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.

I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
I don't understand your point either. But it seems we do agree that the 8 speed groups out there already are of adequate quality... what ever quality is.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Frkl
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.

​​​​​​If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.

I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
...it's difficult, if not impossible, to explain to someone who bought and rides a Tarmac Di2 equipped bicycle, that 8 in the back will give you all the range you need, and will be somewhat more rugged and reliable in most use environments. If your primary goal is some sort of race pacing, where cadence matters a lot, on varying terrain, then more cogs = better. If you try to explain that in general cycling these days, you'll immediately be cast as a retrogrouch, bullying the more enlightened progressives here, who believe in the ultimate triumph of the march of technology.

Good luck to you, sir. For myself, I have actually reduced a couple of 9 cog rears to 8, just to simplify my life. But I have a lot of parts lying around, so replacing the shifters with 8 speed was not a big deal


Somewhere, in one of his books, Frank Berto voiced this opinion, that 8 was about as far as you needed to go to achieve optimal gearing. It is true that he was not speaking about racing. But neither are most of us in general cycling.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:15 AM
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When talking speeds, it revolves around indexing. Shimano was able to pass everyone else because of their Centeron guide pulley. It basically removed the issues with imperfection.

As speeds increased and cogs got closer together that extra slop was a problem and RD needed to be more precise. With that precision comes a more finicky setup, not in the drivetrain per se, but in alignment. An obviously bent hanger will be an issue for any drivetrain, but it is less tolerant of minor bumps.

Depending on the era, there are those that point to 9 speed as the best. Well less Rapid Rise, which I think has a following in some circles. 8 was relatively short, but 9 had a good run, especially mtb’s. My choice would be 9 as an all around no brainer drivetrain. Dura Ace 7700 is often cited as one of the best ever. Less the spider triple, which it never should have had, and the somewhat misunderstood BB.

As ranges have increased, more speeds are necessary just to make a bike rideable, especially with the demise of the triple. But on more traditional ranges it is difficult to say what advantage there is other than tweaking performance.

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Old 02-27-24, 11:24 AM
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In the brifter realm, I found 8-speed Mirage to be a tad more finicky than 8-speed 105, but maybe that's not fair, I should probably compare Mirage to RSX, but I've only messed with 7-speed RSX, but I did find the RSX bombproof.

BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
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Old 02-27-24, 11:30 AM
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12 speed is the latest and greatest and everything below is "obsolete" as far as bicycle marketing is concerned. Given how dirt cheap 11, 10 and 9 speed parts are in 2024, what exactly is the advantage of falling back so many generations to 8 speed?

Because 10 speed is less durable than 8 speed? Ok, sure, but 10 speed is CHEAP AS HELL. Replace those 10 speed parts when they wear out. Who cares.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
Depending on the era, there are those that point to 9 speed as the best. Well less Rapid Rise, which I think has a following in some circles.
Rapid Rise actuated by Sram Attack Gripshifts is one of my favorite flat-bar setups. Both shifters shift the same way for upshifts, the 10-position front shifter works pretty good with dropbar front derailleurs, and you can sweep across your entire cassette with one movement.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by hybridbkrdr
... wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
Why would they?
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Old 02-27-24, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
In the brifter realm, I found 8-speed Mirage to be a tad more finicky than 8-speed 105, but maybe that's not fair, I should probably compare Mirage to RSX, but I've only messed with 7-speed RSX, but I did find the RSX bombproof.

BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
Microshift and it's clones/knockoffs are your friends. Their 2 paddle design(or SRAM's) beats the crunchy Shimano brake lever shift every day. The only drawback is no hidden cables. Of course once Shimano started hiding their cables, their brifters became cable eaters.

Also, these days 5-8 speeds all use the same chain. What's not to like. If you're a triple rider like me, no need to go above 8 or 9. In fact, one of my bikes is 3 x 7 with a 12-28 on back. 2 steps all the way till the 18. 3 to the 24, then the 28 cog.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:44 AM
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Seems like the hardest part about running 8 speed drop bar stuff is finding replacement hoods. Seems like it's easier to find hardly used shifters than fresh hoods.

I kinda wonder what the guys in the video were talking about exactly. Sram/Campy/Shimano comparo is tricky as I don't think Sram ever did drop-bar 8-speed. Campy did 8-speed flatbar stuff but it was pretty darn rare.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Microshift and it's clones/knockoffs are your friends. Their 2 paddle design(or SRAM's) beats the crunchy Shimano brake lever shift every day. The only drawback is no hidden cables. Of course once Shimano started hiding their cables, their brifters became cable eaters.
Yeah, I only use side-exit Shimano brifters. These days it's not too tough to find a barely ridden turn-of-the-century Trek with 105 or Ultegra triple 9-speed for quite cheap. It's a little bit of work to grab the shifters and rear derailleur then try to sell the frame, wheels, etc but you can often end up making a little bit of money on the deal.

I've never tried MS dropbar shifters but I have an MS 11-sp flatbar shifter, the price was nice but it only has a one-direction downshift lever. Upon riding it I was surprised how much I missed the bi-directional upshift lever on Shimano 11-sp.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:52 AM
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And before someone comes on and says, "why would you want a triple when you can get the same range out of a 1 or 2x?" If you need to get to either end of your range, there's less overall shifting with the 3X. With all those single cog steps in a 11/12/13 rear, you have to do a lot of shifting to get from one end of the range to the other. I do understand the clearance advantages with a 1X/tiny chainring on MTBs, but for me, on a roadie, no to 1x.
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Old 02-27-24, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Yeah, I only use side-exit Shimano brifters. These days it's not too tough to find a barely ridden turn-of-the-century Trek with 105 or Ultegra triple 9-speed for quite cheap. It's a little bit of work to grab the shifters and rear derailleur then try to sell the frame, wheels, etc but you can often end up making a little bit of money on the deal.

I've never tried MS dropbar shifters but I have an MS 11-sp flatbar shifter, the price was nice but it only has a one-direction downshift lever. Upon riding it I was surprised how much I missed the bi-directional upshift lever on Shimano 11-sp.
Some say they're clunky, but they do what I want. I hit a paddle, and they shift quickly without that long throw like a Shimano brake lever shift. That's about all I need out of a shifter. Some people may need more.

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Old 02-27-24, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
That RH derailleur is the living proof of the fact that idiots are easily parted with their money. Actually the entire company, starting with the historic French name stolen by a modern American company that has nothing to do with France, just stinks of cringe worthy marketing snake oil. I get second hand cringe embarrassment just reading the stuff on their site. And in reality their tires are all made by Panaracer.

Sorry just in case anyone here is a super fan. No maliciousness toward you intended.
not a fan, and I agree. and the same can be said of amateur cyclists purchasing carbon fiber "super bikes" with electronic 12 speed shifting.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
And before someone comes on and says, "why would you want a triple when you can get the same range out of a 1 or 2x?" If you need to get to either end of your range, there's less overall shifting with the 3X. With all those single cog steps in a 11/12/13 rear, you have to do a lot of shifting to get from one end of the range to the other.
Here are the number of shifts required to get from the big-big combo to the small-small combo in a few different setups:

1x13: 12 shifts
2x12: 12 shifts
2x11: 11 shifts
3x10: 11 shifts

Not much difference ...
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Old 02-27-24, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Rapid Rise actuated by Sram Attack Gripshifts is one of my favorite flat-bar setups. Both shifters shift the same way for upshifts, the 10-position front shifter works pretty good with dropbar front derailleurs, and you can sweep across your entire cassette with one movement.
When my wife first started riding trails, she had been using downtube shifters on her road bike. Even though they both function in opposite directions, she would invariable shift the wrong direction with triggers. I installed a RR RD so front and rear levers (thumb/index) functioned the same.

I ended up trying one on one of my bikes. I do like the single trigger paintball action in quickly dumping a cassette over the 3-3-3.

But what makes Rapid Rise Rapid Demise is the inability of the RD to react to must shift situations. When you have to get to the lowest cog, the RD spring is at its weakest point with the toughest shift and just can’t do it in a split second crank pause compared to pulling a cable (top normal) to get there. There might also be a slight lag in the shifter releasing the pawl compared with immediately pulling the cable. That I don’t know.

Given enough time/anticipation there isn’t an issue using them.

John

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