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Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?

Old 04-09-24, 08:40 AM
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...OK thanks.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:19 AM
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Comparing differences such as aero or not aero, people tend to look at only how much faster it can make them at any particular moment. And that's not usually much. The effects though are cumulative over the time of the ride. So in a way it's sort of like interest rates on a savings account, CD or other fund. If given a choice, would you choose a account with 1% less APR just because it doesn't get you much difference in money earned on any particular day?
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Old 04-09-24, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I hear this a lot .... I think it is a case of "looks good on paper."

The "benefit" of aero is going faster for a given power output, or going farther at a given speed. Also, a lot of aero is Not the bike, but the rider. A slightly plump rider sitting sot of upright riding at 17 mph average is getting almost no aero benefit in reality, despite what the number s say (sort of like how sanding the paint of your bike will indeed make you faster mathematically, but in reality the 80 or 100 grams in meaningless ... lost in the noise.)

Also, the "benefit" of finishing a ride a few seconds quicker one one bike as opposed to another is not really even an issue for most non-pros (unless they have that specific drive. I actually like being out on the bike and being able to ride a little longer for a given amount of energy Sounds great ... but how does that benefit me? I can arbitrarilly add a few hundred meters to my ride ... by circling the block or something ... but since my ride is determined by my route, and time on the route is not an issue ... am I really getting any benefit by going more around the block at the end of my ride? Is being able to go a few hundred meters more on a given amount of energy a "benefit"? Also since my energy differs every day ...

So, am I actually saving a few seconds? Am I actually benefiting from saving .002 watts of energy over a ride? Also, if because of my rising posture i am actually not aero might the added weight of the aero frame actually a net cost?

The bike I ride most often has rim brakes and shallow rims ... and (bows head in shame) exposed cables coming out of the brifters. But .... it accelerates quickly with its lighter, less aero wheels---for the first three pedal strokes. it is comfortable for rides as long as my body can handle. I built it with zero care for "aero," but instead tried to make it light without breaking the bank. it is a really fun ride.

If "benefit" to me meant "I can cover a given course a few seconds faster on this bike, all else being equal" then sure, get the heavier aero frame, with the complicated cables-through-stem construction, the heavier deep-dish wheels .... but since i ride to enjoy the time I spend riding .... I mean, if we are really going to "benefit" from aero, shouldn't we all be riding TT bikes, and hurting ourselves making sure we always stay in a tight tuck?

To me, "aero" is the new "x hundred grams lighter" or ".00x percent laterally stiffer and .000x percent more vertically compliant." For almost every rider, pursuing marginal gains is a matter of personal preference, and the only real "benefit" is psychological.
The aero gains are real and measurable. They may or may not matter to you. I think people have a tendency to over-estimate the performance effect of bike weight and underestimate the effect of aero. Then thereís comfort to consider, both in riding position and ride quality. Thatís why we donít all ride uncompromising TT bikes all the time and especially not on mountainous endurance events. Modern road bikes are getting better at combining aero with comfort and ride quality.

I simply choose the type of bike best suited to my overall riding goals. For me thatís a modern endurance road race bike.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...instead of wasting more of your time on multiple response posts, where you repeat yourself, maybe you could link to a source for your numbers on this ? I'm fine with reading it, and the accompanying studies. believe I said I found the idea intriguing, which means I'm still thinking about and digesting it. The idea that slow people could derive some measurable benefit from current, high end, aero frames is new to me. If I really wanted aero benefit, personally, I'd buy a fairing for a few hundred bucks.
In your opinion, is a measurable gain of speed the only justification for an amateur rider to ride a high-end, aero-optimized bike?
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Old 04-09-24, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Comparing differences such as aero or not aero, people tend to look at only how much faster it can make them at any particular moment. And that's not usually much. The effects though are cumulative over the time of the ride. So in a way it's sort of like interest rates on a savings account, CD or other fund. If given a choice, would you choose a account with 1% less APR just because it doesn't get you much difference in money earned on any particular day?
...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
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Old 04-09-24, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
Probably because you all word it like you are faulting other people because they choose to pay the initial cost to get that type of return on their investment.

But come on, there are bikes that are aero for the same price as round tubed bikes. So even the initial cost isn't a valid reason.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
In your opinion, is a measurable gain of speed the only justification for an amateur rider to ride a high-end, aero-optimized bike?
...I've already stated my opinion. It was in my original reply to Koyote . And nobody needs justification for the bicycle they choose to use. I certainly don't justify my own choices. Further, the people here interested in "refuting" my outrageous opinions as expressed, have clearly broadened this to now include every bicycle frame that contains some aerodynamic design styling, not just the high end ones.

Not sure why anyone would be interested in my opinion on this, given what has gone before. Unless you want to further extend a thread that already draws numerous complaints about being too long and repetitive in nature.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
Because not everyone who buys a high end bike does it only for realizing measurable performance gains. I buy bikes that excite me, and provide the kind of response I want when I'm pushing against the limits of my fitness and skills.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
"To us" is the key. Without that, it's a blanket assertion of what should be important to somebody else.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Probably because you all word it like you are faulting other people because they choose to pay the initial cost to get that type of return on their investment.
...it's a simple calculation to make on investment funds. It's why the high return funds with significant management fees often fail to produce better results than a low load Vanguard investment. I don't care any more about other people's investments than I do about which cycles they choose to ride. To suggest otherwise is simply untrue.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Because not everyone who buys a high end bike does it only for realizing measurable performance gains. I buy bikes that excite me, and provide the kind of response I want when I'm pushing against the limits of my fitness and skills.

...great, I'm happy for you. You are one of the people I referenced when I said, "...you can buy some performance at the bike store".
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Old 04-09-24, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
"To us" is the key. Without that, it's a blanket assertion of what should be important to somebody else.
...yet there it is, in black and white... "to us". Are we now reduced to arguing about what I might have said, rather than what I did say ? Well of course we are. We've been doing that ever since I made the fatal mistake of respinding to Koyote 's sincere request for an explanation.

Honestly, the current general forum would collapse flat on the floor without the copious amounts of straw that appear in these threads.
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Old 04-09-24, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01

But come on, there are bikes that are aero for the same price as round tubed bikes. So even the initial cost isn't a valid reason.

...there are people still making round tubed bikes ? How in the world do they sell them ? Who buys such a thing ?
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Old 04-09-24, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
I don't care any more about other people's investments than I do about which cycles they choose to ride. To suggest otherwise is simply untrue.
And yet, within a few posts you declared that certain bikes are not worth the cost -- which is to judge other people's choices:

Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
The reason this digression has gone on so long is mainly your constantly changing (and often self-contradictory) arguments. This is just the latest example.
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Old 04-09-24, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
"To us" is the key. Without that, it's a blanket assertion of what should be important to somebody else.
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...yet there it is, in black and white... "to us". Are we now reduced to arguing about what I might have said, rather than what I did say ? Well of course we are. We've been doing that ever since I made the fatal mistake of respinding to Koyote 's sincere request for an explanation.

Honestly, the current general forum would collapse flat on the floor without the copious amounts of straw that appear in these threads.
Originally Posted by Koyote
And yet, within a few posts you declared that certain bikes are not worth the cost -- which is to judge other people's choices:

...sure. Why is it unfair to say (as some already have here, including me), that the ROI on these bicycles is not worth the fund's buy in fees to us ?
So once more, dear friends:

​​​​​​​A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"

​​​​​​​The reason this digression has gone on so long is mainly your constantly changing (and often self-contradictory) arguments. This is just the latest example.

...OK.
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Old 04-09-24, 10:51 AM
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Old 04-09-24, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
So once more, dear friends:

...OK.
I just spent thirty seconds scrolling up, and found posts from four different people (including me) who called you out on that statement -- who pointed out the exact same fallacy. But yes, I'm sure we're all misrepresenting you.

Or maybe something else is going on?
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Old 04-09-24, 11:21 AM
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I’m going to close this thread for the rest of the day in the hope some of you find something better to do. When I reopen I certainly don’t expect arguing to commence again. Thank you?
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