Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Old 04-06-24, 03:46 PM
  #26  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,414

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Liked 3,938 Times in 1,944 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Reluctance to change and obsession with weight (still both lingering).
Reluctance to switch over to a new technology, because what you are using now works fine.

Lots of new tech claims to solve a problem that doesnít exist. I blame the tech bro echo chamber.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is online now  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 04-06-24, 04:17 PM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,769

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Liked 3,249 Times in 2,063 Posts
a real purist will use the heel of the skateboard type shoe to stop.
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Likes For Troul:
Old 04-06-24, 04:23 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,224

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Liked 3,068 Times in 1,689 Posts
Answer is yes. It's not about whether one is "better" than the other, but about fitness for the specific purpose. Each has advantages and drawbacks, so its about weighing them based on your needs.

Keep in mind that rim brakes served well for well over a century, though there were also hub brakes just as long with each having it's place. The need for disc brakes came about mainly because of mtn bikes where the drawbacks of rim brakes became problematic.

In favor of disc brakes, excellent wet weather service & elimination of rim wear. Disc brakes also open the door to CF rims so that's a subtle plus. The drawbacks are greater complexity, initial & maintenance costs, and weight.

In favor of rim brakes, simplicity & reliability, low initial and maintenance cost, lower weight. The drawback is mainly poor wet service, along with rim wear issues.

For road use with narrow tires, the balance makes rim brakes the smarter choice, since the drawbacks are non issues for most, possibly excluding all weather commuters.

I'm a life long road rider, both sport and utility, and cannot see a need for discs. I've adapted to the poorer wet braking, which is manageable, especially because traction is also reduced. As for rim wear, it's never been an issue in almost 250k miles, though it might become one if there were enough urban miles in that mix. OTOH rim life in NYC area is lower anyway owing to potholes.

If it weren't for the marketing efforts, and the thinking of mountain riders starting to buy road bikes, I believe that high end road bikes would still be rim braked, and wouldn't be surprised by some return to rim brakes on sport/competition bikes.




In favor
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

ďOne accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinionsĒ - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 04-06-24, 04:38 PM
  #29  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 12,232
Liked 6,123 Times in 3,089 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...in a very dark period in forum history, it got closed. It's a lot like when they closed down all the asylums, and put the inmates out on the street.
I was actually "in the business" way back when this happened. I can tell you that nobody with any expertise or experience thought it would work. Obviously it didn't and now we have the abandoned demented wandering the country. We've actually had a few cause trouble here on BF over the years.
shelbyfv is offline  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 04-06-24, 04:47 PM
  #30  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 76
Liked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Sorry I didnít mean to offend the boomers in here.
speyfitter is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 04:48 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Ghazmh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The banks of the River Charles
Posts: 2,042

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease, 2020 Seven Evergreen, 2019 Honey Allroads Ti, 2018 Seven Redsky XX, 2017 Trek Boon 7, 2014 Trek 520, 2006 Gary Fisher Montare

Liked 920 Times in 492 Posts
I wonder if anyone will come out with a road hydraulic rim caliper to allow us with rim brake road bike to use the latest groupsets like Shimano Dura Ace 12 speed which is disappointingly only hydraulic and di2.
Ghazmh is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 05:22 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 9,305
Liked 5,469 Times in 3,372 Posts
Originally Posted by Frkl
Not that it will make a difference in changing your mind, but disc brakes on cars, and especially high performance cars, have gotten progressively larger in diameter until they are limited by the rim. But the rim on a bike doesn't limit in the way a car rim does.
Brake rotors only need to get much bigger if power, tyre grip levels or weight significantly increase. None of these things are going to happen on bicycles and certainly not to the extent of requiring 600 mm rotor diameters. Do you see any rim-braked motorbikes out there?
PeteHski is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 05:31 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,769

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Liked 3,249 Times in 2,063 Posts
If the modern rotor was designed to have the vented rotor, it might actually facilitate a longer material life & reduce the diameter sizes needed... So what if it increases the weight some, we all don't live a corner block to corner block in racing lives.
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 06:06 PM
  #34  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,923

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Liked 3,533 Times in 2,001 Posts
Originally Posted by zandoval
Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use Disk Brakes?
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
A: No.
Actually, you need a frame and fork designed to handle disc brake loads, and hubs capable of mounting a brake rotor.

Q: Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use rim brakes?
A: Yes, you need to add brake tracks.
No. Machined brake tracks are a relatively modern feature. Unmachined brake tracks were universal until only a couple decades ago.

N.B. there are/were dedicated rims for track use that do not have a sidewall that could function as a brake track, but those were the exception, not the rule.
JohnDThompson is online now  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 04-06-24, 06:07 PM
  #35  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,414

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Liked 3,938 Times in 1,944 Posts
Originally Posted by Ghazmh
I wonder if anyone will come out with a road hydraulic rim caliper to allow us with rim brake road bike to use the latest groupsets like Shimano Dura Ace 12 speed which is disappointingly only hydraulic and di2.
SRAM makes (made) a hydraulic rim brake.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is online now  
Old 04-06-24, 06:25 PM
  #36  
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,584

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Liked 4,419 Times in 2,465 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
Sorry I didnít mean to offend the boomers in here.
It amazing how someone comes in spoiling for a fight and is surprised to find one.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old SchoolÖWhen It Wasnít Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!



cyccommute is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 07:00 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 9,305
Liked 5,469 Times in 3,372 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse
Reluctance to switch over to a new technology, because what you are using now works fine.

Lots of new tech claims to solve a problem that doesnít exist. I blame the tech bro echo chamber.
Isnít that the definition of reluctance to change? Iím happy with what Iíve already got and so Iím reluctant to change it.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 08:56 PM
  #38  
Veteran, Pacifist
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,555

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Liked 5,157 Times in 2,346 Posts
As an occasional retrogrouch, I will move beyond the disc brake discussion, and say Technically that I cannot foresee:
1a. Using 13 cogs on a cassette,
1b. Neither a 10 cog nor one with 52 teeth.
2. I like tubes on my road bikes.
3. I prefer external cable routing
4. Custom, handmade frames are priceless
5. 40+mm road tires are for sissies (and maybe some self supported tourers).
6. If you can clear your handlebars, your mind will follow


I ride vintage & modern, downtube shifting/Ergo10/Di2, CF/Ti/Steel frames, tubular/clincher - just make the frame 60cm please, and the weather pleasant.


1959 or 2020 - or anything in between, doesnít really matter to me, just give it nice tires and wheels.

Last edited by Wildwood; 04-06-24 at 09:07 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Likes For Wildwood:
Old 04-06-24, 09:01 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,104

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Liked 4,134 Times in 2,665 Posts
Originally Posted by zandoval
...

Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use Disk Brakes?

...
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
A: No.

...
Care to come and show me how to mount discs on my wheels? (I know how to re-rim a disc wheel to work with rim brakes.)
79pmooney is offline  
Likes For 79pmooney:
Old 04-06-24, 09:04 PM
  #40  
Grupetto Bob
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,680

Bikes: Bikey McBike Face

Liked 6,235 Times in 3,178 Posts
For me it depends on what is more valuable, a bike that stops quickly, or one that climbs well. (Yeah, I know, one could save your life.). I have two carbon bikes with different setups. The Orbea has Ultegra rim brakes and aluminum rims with tubed GP5Ks. Even with Ultegra pads stopping is typical of rim brakes which is to say it’s meh. However, the Orbea is lighter with the rim brakes and man can that bike accelerate and climb. The Bianchi has aero carbon rims, is tubeless and Ultegra discs. The bike can stop on a dime but is slow to accelerate and is not ideal for climbing.

I spend far more time climbing than braking and that is where the scale tips. Sure I love a fast braking bike, but on a long climb, the lighter rim braked bike wins. If I could own a light disc braked bike, then it would be an ideal combination. I know they exist at stratospheric prices, so will have to weight 😆 until the prices come down. Call me a Luddite or Boomer or Retro Grouch but I know what works for me.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾‍♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾‍♂️







rsbob is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 09:34 PM
  #41  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Australia
Posts: 111
Liked 56 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Brake rotors only need to get much bigger if power, tyre grip levels or weight significantly increase. None of these things are going to happen on bicycles and certainly not to the extent of requiring 600 mm rotor diameters. Do you see any rim-braked motorbikes out there?


Well it was tried....Buell I think.

redshift1 is offline  
Likes For redshift1:
Old 04-06-24, 09:41 PM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,772
Liked 1,444 Times in 733 Posts
Originally Posted by rsbob
For me it depends on what is more valuable, a bike that stops quickly, or one that climbs well. (Yeah, I know, one could save your life.). I have two carbon bikes with different setups. The Orbea has Ultegra rim brakes and aluminum rims with tubed GP5Ks. Even with Ultegra pads stopping is typical of rim brakes which is to say itís meh. However, the Orbea is lighter with the rim brakes and man can that bike accelerate and climb. The Bianchi has aero carbon rims, is tubeless and Ultegra discs. The bike can stop on a dime but is slow to accelerate and is not ideal for climbing.

I spend far more time climbing than braking and that is where the scale tips. Sure I love a fast braking bike, but on a long climb, the lighter rim braked bike wins. If I could own a light disc braked bike, then it would be an ideal combination. I know they exist at stratospheric prices, so will have to weight 😆 until the prices come down. Call me a Luddite or Boomer or Retro Grouch but I know what works for me.
Actually just sell both of the bikes and pick up a Specialized Aethos and get the best of both worlds.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 10:26 PM
  #43  
Grupetto Bob
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,680

Bikes: Bikey McBike Face

Liked 6,235 Times in 3,178 Posts
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Actually just sell both of the bikes and pick up a Specialized Aethos and get the best of both worlds.
Excellent recommendation. Thanks
__________________
Road 🚴🏾‍♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾‍♂️







rsbob is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 10:54 PM
  #44  
Method to My Madness
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,975

Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse x2, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata 3

Liked 1,611 Times in 1,110 Posts
Originally Posted by cb400bill
I just had to correct the spelling of grouches in the thread title.
Damn, I missed the original, incorrectly spelled version of the title; what was it?
SoSmellyAir is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 10:55 PM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,328

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Liked 8,022 Times in 3,190 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Actually, you need a frame and fork designed to handle disc brake loads, and hubs capable of mounting a brake rotor.
The question was about the wheel set, not the frame.

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
No. Machined brake tracks are a relatively modern feature. Unmachined brake tracks were universal until only a couple decades ago.
I didn't state that machined brake tracks were required.

0/2
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 10:55 PM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,328

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Liked 8,022 Times in 3,190 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Care to come and show me how to mount discs on my wheels? (I know how to re-rim a disc wheel to work with rim brakes.)
Whoosh.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 10:56 PM
  #47  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,414

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Liked 3,938 Times in 1,944 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Isnít that the definition of reluctance to change? Iím happy with what Iíve already got and so Iím reluctant to change it.
Well, itís at least the most common reason why someone doesnít feel the need to upgrade. Itís not the consumerís fault if the new thing has an unconvincing value proposition.

Our city will pay us to dump our gas-fired water heater and replace it with a heat pump heater. But the power was out for a full day last week, and our old water heater continued to work. A heat pump heater would have been useless without electricity. Not a compelling value proposition.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is online now  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 04-06-24, 11:53 PM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,998

Bikes: old ones

Liked 10,449 Times in 7,248 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Isnít that the definition of reluctance to change? Iím happy with what Iíve already got and so Iím reluctant to change it.
...you've really never heard the phrase, "a solution looking for a problem" ? I'd have guessed it commonly used in your field.
3alarmer is offline  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 04-07-24, 12:13 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
50PlusCycling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,229
Liked 926 Times in 463 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
I hope we can use this thread to query the retro grouch community on border issues pertaining to equipment, cycling performance, expectations, etc.

So here is my question/point of discussion:

If disc brakes had come before rim brakes, would RGs still love rim brakes as much as they do?

I mean imagine if disc brakes were there first and then the idea of rim brakes came along? A brake that sacrifices the rim you say? I’m sticking with my tried and true sacrificial rotor to protect the wheel!
My first bike with a disk brake was a Schwinn Stingray, which was made before many people on this forum were born. But that didn’t mean it was good. I don’t mind seeing innovation creating solutions to problems, but lots of innovations are solutions to problems which don’t really exist. The science of marketing is convincing people to buy things they don’t really need and can’t really afford.

Rim brakes are popular with retro-grouches because they are simple, effective, lightweight, easy to maintain and adjust, don’t require bleeding, and the pads are very long lasting. They are inexpensive, easy to install and set up, and, depending on the levers you use, you can precisely adjust the modulation.

I have a couple of bikes with hydraulic disk brakes. I like how the brakes work, great stopping power and modulation, great in the rain, and they look cool (an important point to some people). However, installing and bleeding is a messy and often annoying job, and for bike newbs who aren’t handy with a wrench, and don’t have a bleeding kit, they are much harder to maintain than a mechanical rim brake system. Mechanical disk brakes aren’t much different than rim brakes when it comes to maintenance, but I don’t much like the “feel” of mechanical disk brakes.

Most people won’t ride a particular bike anywhere near as long as it takes rim brakes to wear out a rim. I’ve got a road bike which is running old-school (thin) Mavic Helium wheels, I’ve put more than 100k on this bike, and haven’t worn down the rims yet.
50PlusCycling is offline  
Likes For 50PlusCycling:
Old 04-07-24, 02:40 AM
  #50  
Steel is real
 
georges1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 2,149

Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)

Liked 1,071 Times in 714 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Reluctance to change and obsession with weight (still both lingering). Maybe cost too at the lower end of the market. Mountain bikes really paved the way for bicycle disc brakes and it was inevitable that they would eventually find their way onto all other types of bike.
Yet from 1983 until 2004/2006 when the disc brakes went mandatory on the mountain bikes, none really bothered about disc brakes on mountain bikes. XTR , TRP Vbrakes, and Avid Extreme Arch were the most performing Vbrakes ever made alongwith the XT 780 T Vbrakes. There was a time when you could order a MTB with v brake mounts and disc brake mounts, after 2006 it was not more possible.
georges1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.