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Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Old 04-08-24, 09:05 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
If parts are getting more expensive over time then the value proposition is falling.
View older 10 speed parts as collectible items that aren't to be sold on the cheap and which durability has been proven. People pay premium for nuovo record and c record campy group despite tehy are old but there is a reason why something of value has a serious pricetag.The price for dura ace 7700-7800 spare parts skryrocketed.
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Old 04-08-24, 09:08 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Is that technology or technique? I ride bikes that are 20+ year old in places where I used to ride 30 to 40 years ago and don't crash as much as I did when I started out. I learned how not to crash. My bikes are still capable of riding anywhere a modern bike can.



Again, I'm riding bikes that are 20+ years old. I avoid riding in muddy conditions because I don't want to be "that guy" who leaves a reminder that muddy trails shouldn't be ridden on. My X-9 front/XO rear drivetrain doesn't drop chains because I know how to adjust them and how to shift them. I don't own a headset that is less than about 20 years old and, oddly, I haven't worn out a headset since manufacturers stopped putting threaded headsets on bicycles.

Perhaps you aren't a skilled at maintenance as you think you are.
Iíll just ignore your patronising tone here. Iím not interested in a maintenance pissing contest.

I actually liked my own X9, X0 drivetrain from that era, but it is nowhere near as effective as the current equivalents. I could get a season out of a quality headset in those days. If only they made them larger.

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Old 04-08-24, 09:16 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by georges1
View older 10 speed parts as collectible items that aren't to be sold on the cheap and which durability has been proven. People pay premium for nuovo record and c record campy group despite tehy are old but there is a reason why something of value has a serious pricetag.The price for dura ace 7700-7800 spare parts skryrocketed.
Itís the vintage mindset that drives prices like this. I own a classic car that has increased in value by almost a factor of 10 over the last 2 decades, but it doesnít make it any better. It is just more expensive. More expensive than my newer cars, but still slower and less practical. Less reliable too actually.

If you see vintage bikes as an investment opportunity then great.
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Old 04-08-24, 09:21 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Is that technology or technique? I ride bikes that are 20+ year old in places where I used to ride 30 to 40 years ago and don't crash as much as I did when I started out. I learned how not to crash. My bikes are still capable of riding anywhere a modern bike can.
I think itís possible that you donít know what youíre missing.

I loved my old mountain bikes. My Zaskar LE was my bread and butter bike. I had a Proflex, a Xziang, a Trek 8000, and some cannondaleís. No bad bikes and I rode them hard. I rode them with all the vigor a teenager and guy in his early twenties could manage. I love old hardtails.

When I threw my leg over a modern bike with its modern cockpit, it was night and day. At 45 with a full time job and a couple young kids, Iím faster and more confident than Iíve ever been on a MTB. I donít have 21 year old legs anymore but literally, I could smoke the old me today off road.

Itís the bike. It makes a huge difference. Itís silly to pretend it doesnít. Even Iím somewhat handicapped with my modern hardtail compared to full suspension.

Rent a bike sometime, itíll blow your mind.
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Old 04-08-24, 09:22 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...in a very dark period in forum history, it got closed. It's a lot like when they closed down all the asylums, and put the inmates out on the street.
Mainstreaming FTW!
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Old 04-08-24, 09:29 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It’s the vintage mindset that drives prices like this. I own a classic car that has increased in value by almost a factor of 10 over the last 2 decades, but it doesn’t make it any better. It is just more expensive. More expensive than my newer cars, but still slower and less practical. Less reliable too actually.

If you see vintage bikes as an investment opportunity then great.
Cars are cars but bikes are bikes. Older Dura Ace 7800 isn't less reliable than Dura Ace 9200, it is still aftersought for its aesthetics and solid reliability
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Old 04-08-24, 09:30 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yep, everybody knows it's because the latest generation of road riders grew up eating avocado toast.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
If batteries existed before fire, would we still roast marshmallows when camping?
Don't cross the streams...
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Old 04-08-24, 09:47 AM
  #108  
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1) Brakes aren't just about STOPPING a bike. In fact that may be the LEAST important thing brakes are for. They're for slowing the bike down, by a little or a lot, for stuff like not touching the wheel in front of you, or not overcooking the next curve. Ideally, they should be capable of everything from scrubbing off 1mph to emergency stopping, all without the rider having to think about it. Having tried all three for thousands of miles each, my conclusion is that for that purpose, hydraulic disc brakes > dual pivot rim brakes > single pivot rim brakes. That doesn't mean you need to change what you're using.

2) Saturday's ride was on a bike with indexed DT shifters and a 7 speed cassette. Sunday's on a bike with 11 speeds and STIs. Absolutely no question that, for ease of use, for just riding without thinking about needing to shift BEFORE the hill, etc, Brifters > indexed DT > friction DT. That doesn't mean you need to change what you're using.

I gotta say, though, that one of the LEAST compelling arguments on here, the one that people use to softly denigrate new technology they don't feel the need for is "It's a solution looking for a problem", or "I've never needed more (insert function here) than I have." Cripes, guys - something can be BETTER without making the older technology BAD. You don't want disc brakes? Fine. Don't get disc brakes. You don't want brifters? Fine. Don't get brifters.

Oh, I know - you'll say, "But I want 12 speed electronic shifting, and rim brakes, and nobody sells it!" If enough people wanted that, it would exist. So, apparently enough people DON'T want it.
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Old 04-08-24, 10:55 AM
  #109  
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The OP is apparently now sitting back and enjoying the fireworks. I've never understood what's fun about riling people up over irreconcilable differences, but then I've never watched daytime TV.
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Old 04-08-24, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
The OP is apparently now sitting back and enjoying the fireworks. I've never understood what's fun about riling people up over irreconcilable differences, but then I've never watched daytime TV.
At least we don't have folding chairs to hit each other with!
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Old 04-08-24, 11:17 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
I think itís possible that you donít know what youíre missing.

I loved my old mountain bikes. My Zaskar LE was my bread and butter bike. I had a Proflex, a Xziang, a Trek 8000, and some cannondaleís. No bad bikes and I rode them hard. I rode them with all the vigor a teenager and guy in his early twenties could manage. I love old hardtails.

When I threw my leg over a modern bike with its modern cockpit, it was night and day. At 45 with a full time job and a couple young kids, Iím faster and more confident than Iíve ever been on a MTB. I donít have 21 year old legs anymore but literally, I could smoke the old me today off road.

Itís the bike. It makes a huge difference. Itís silly to pretend it doesnít. Even Iím somewhat handicapped with my modern hardtail compared to full suspension.

Rent a bike sometime, itíll blow your mind.
The revelation for me was when I demoed a bunch of new full suss trail bikes in 2015. At the time I was riding a high-end 2004 Yeti 575, which was a great bike for its era. But up against a 2015 Specialized Enduro it was minutes slower over a 10 km singletrack loop. I'm pretty sure my skill level didn't improve during that demo. I was sold. Then I bought my current Canyon Neuron CF in 2019 and that was faster again, although not such a dramatic difference this time. I haven't ridden a current bike, but I expect they are continuing to improve.
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Old 04-08-24, 11:25 AM
  #112  
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Another think to consider in terms of disc brakes for road bikes is that a disc requires a fork that is built stronger and that fork will not have the feel or flexibility a fork for rim brakes will have

I had this discussion 2 years ago when I was able to get a custom frame made. the builder (who was an early adopter of disc brakes on custom road bikes) noted that if I wanted to go for disc there was real reduction in road feel and handling due to having to build the fork stronger
His questions were along the line: Are you going to ride in the rain a lot, with lots of long steep downhills and maybe a loaded bike? if so go disk otherwise you will be happier handling wise with rim brakes

I went rim (has 11 speed ultegra sti) with the velo orange grand cru dual pivot which perform really well (even in the limited bit of rain I have rode in) certainly meet my needs

retro grouch is a loaded term.... Do i like the look of a classis steel frame and steel frames sure. Is that retro? Style for sure but my newest frame uses steel technology that is as more advanced than steel of 20 or 30 years ago so not sure that is retro

grouch: sometimes (ask my wife)

Now get off of my lawn you whippersnappers

also here is my bike retro looks, modern gear, retro cockpit (for future proofing and looks)

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Old 04-08-24, 11:52 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter
Sorry I didnít mean to offend the boomers in here.
Iím not sure that was called for. But I doubt any boomers are offended.

But it is not about them. The real shake out will be the Echos.

John
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Old 04-08-24, 12:09 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by genejockey

I gotta say, though, that one of the LEAST compelling arguments on here, the one that people use to softly denigrate new technology they don't feel the need for is "It's a solution looking for a problem", or "I've never needed more (insert function here) than I have." Cripes, guys - something can be BETTER without making the older technology BAD. You don't want disc brakes? Fine. Don't get disc brakes. You don't want brifters? Fine. Don't get brifters.
Yeah, this one comes up often. We would still be in the Stone Age if this argument was applied to everything.
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Old 04-08-24, 12:47 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Oh, I know - you'll say, "But I want 12 speed electronic shifting, and rim brakes, and nobody sells it!" If enough people wanted that, it would exist. So, apparently enough people DON'T want it.
I'm not that fussy, but a non-obsolete drivetrain that accommodates rim brakes sure would be nice.

If you have a rim brake frame that you want to keep using (I do), the offerings are getting rather scarce. And 12-speed is right out! Even the new 12-speed mechanical 105 group is hydraulic only.

I suspect that since almost nobody replaces components on a bike they own, the aftermarket for bike components is not big enough for the manufacturers to bother with. And since virtually all new bikes have disc brakes, component manufacturers are happy to keep making what they sell directly to bike manufacturers. The "people don't want it" argument is questionable -- it's more like "the manufacturers have moved on to something else, and it's now a Hobson's choice for consumers".
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Old 04-08-24, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I'm not that fussy, but a non-obsolete drivetrain that accommodates rim brakes sure would be nice.
People around here don't like the word "obsolete." Brace yourself.
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Old 04-08-24, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Another think to consider in terms of disc brakes for road bikes is that a disc requires a fork that is built stronger and that fork will not have the feel or flexibility a fork for rim brakes will have

I had this discussion 2 years ago when I was able to get a custom frame made. the builder (who was an early adopter of disc brakes on custom road bikes) noted that if I wanted to go for disc there was real reduction in road feel and handling due to having to build the fork stronger
His questions were along the line: Are you going to ride in the rain a lot, with lots of long steep downhills and maybe a loaded bike? if so go disk otherwise you will be happier handling wise with rim brakes
Please explain how a stronger fork leads to reduced handling ability. I'm not even sure on the "road feel" part of that as if anything the feel would be transmitted better with a stiffer fork. Seems more like actual increased "road feel" is a reduction to your preferred "road feel".
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Old 04-08-24, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
Please explain how a stronger fork leads to reduced handling ability. I'm not even sure on the "road feel" part of that as if anything the feel would be transmitted better with a stiffer fork. Seems more like actual increased "road feel" is a reduction to your preferred "road feel".
Simple: forks for disc brakes have to be built stronger than a fork for rim brakes. Making them stronger makes them stiffer and less compliant
Maybe carbon forks can use some of the advantages carbon to design around it, but not the case for steel. (lots of examples of steel forks retro fitted for disc and then failing)

This was directly from Dave Kirk, who has been a custom builder for 20 years, and before that built for serotta in all materials.

Dave is not a disc hater, and spent a lot of time figuring out how to do nice disc builds which he does, but is a lover of a good handling responsive bike and one heck of a rider

bottom line he has technical and street cred

More to the point: no one technology is perfect and best for everyone. and all technologies have tradeoffs.

If i were riding in tour de france (not likely) the bike and technology I would want would be a lot different than for a zombie apocalypse bike (where retro grouch bike will win )
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Old 04-08-24, 02:48 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I'm not that fussy, but a non-obsolete drivetrain that accommodates rim brakes sure would be nice.

If you have a rim brake frame that you want to keep using (I do), the offerings are getting rather scarce.
If you have one or more favorite rim brake frames, just hoard some components; I do that for my go to road bike and my project bike, both of which are 11-speed.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
And 12-speed is right out! Even the new 12-speed mechanical 105 group is hydraulic only.
I suspect that a true retro-ground would scoff at 12-speed (and likely even 11-speed) while extoling the virtues of their triple cranksets, which supposedly allow both sufficient range and small gearing steps that would allow one to go straight from the Tour de France to a light tour through the provence afterward.
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Old 04-08-24, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Simple: forks for disc brakes have to be built stronger than a fork for rim brakes. Making them stronger makes them stiffer and less compliant
Maybe carbon forks can use some of the advantages carbon to design around it, but not the case for steel. (lots of examples of steel forks retro fitted for disc and then failing)

This was directly from Dave Kirk, who has been a custom builder for 20 years, and before that built for serotta in all materials.

Dave is not a disc hater, and spent a lot of time figuring out how to do nice disc builds which he does, but is a lover of a good handling responsive bike and one heck of a rider

bottom line he has technical and street cred

More to the point: no one technology is perfect and best for everyone. and all technologies have tradeoffs.

If i were riding in tour de france (not likely) the bike and technology I would want would be a lot different than for a zombie apocalypse bike (where retro grouch bike will win )

Itís certainly a non-issue with modern carbon forks given how you can manipulate stiffness in different directions. Much more limited options in steel.
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Old 04-08-24, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
At least we don't have folding chairs to hit each other with!
Heh. WrestleMania was just in town last weekend.
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Old 04-08-24, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
People around here don't like the word "obsolete." Brace yourself.
ďObsoleteĒ is obsolete.
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Old 04-08-24, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Simple: forks for disc brakes have to be built stronger than a fork for rim brakes. Making them stronger makes them stiffer and less compliant
Maybe carbon forks can use some of the advantages carbon to design around it, but not the case for steel. (lots of examples of steel forks retro fitted for disc and then failing)

This was directly from Dave Kirk, who has been a custom builder for 20 years, and before that built for serotta in all materials.

Dave is not a disc hater, and spent a lot of time figuring out how to do nice disc builds which he does, but is a lover of a good handling responsive bike and one heck of a rider

bottom line he has technical and street cred

More to the point: no one technology is perfect and best for everyone. and all technologies have tradeoffs.

If i were riding in tour de france (not likely) the bike and technology I would want would be a lot different than for a zombie apocalypse bike (where retro grouch bike will win )
OK, so none of that explains any specific reason the handling is worse with a stronger fork. Iím not against preferring any of the benefits of a more compliant fork, Iím just trying to understand how it actually results in better handling, or at least a reason other than someone has experience and thinks so. Lots of times perception is not reality and handling for most things is improved by eliminating flex. Or maybe itís the definition of handling being used which can be pretty ambiguous.
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Old 04-08-24, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
OK, so none of that explains any specific reason the handling is worse with a stronger fork. Iím not against preferring any of the benefits of a more compliant fork, Iím just trying to understand how it actually results in better handling, or at least a reason other than someone has experience and thinks so. Lots of times perception is not reality and handling for most things is improved by eliminating flex. Or maybe itís the definition of handling being used which can be pretty ambiguous.
The only thing that occurs to me is an observation I made years ago, when switching from a Cannondale 3.0 frame to a Ritchey Road Logic steel frame. Descending the same road, and hitting the same patch of crappy asphalt on a turn, the stiffer Cannondale hopped slightly, and I could feel the rear end stepping out just a hair on each hop. I hit the same patch on the Ritchey and it rolled right over it with no hop. So maybe the idea is that a less compliant fork would corner worse by not absorbing bumps as well? But then if you're running modern, wider tires, you get both compliance and grip so does it still matter?
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Old 04-08-24, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
OK, so none of that explains any specific reason the handling is worse with a stronger fork. Iím not against preferring any of the benefits of a more compliant fork, Iím just trying to understand how it actually results in better handling, or at least a reason other than someone has experience and thinks so. Lots of times perception is not reality and handling for most things is improved by eliminating flex. Or maybe itís the definition of handling being used which can be pretty ambiguous.
I think it is actually quite a difficult question to answer. Tyre compliance is the dominant factor, especially on a modern bike. But fork compliance is likely to be a secondary factor. Vertical compliance will mostly affect ride quality and torsional compliance will affect handling. Itís hard to say what level of torsional compliance provides optimal handling and it probably varies depending on rider weight and road conditions. I just know that modern carbon forks on disc braked bikes handle very well and are not harsh riding. I donít believe disc brake loads present a real challenge for carbon fork design, but maybe they do for steel.
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