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Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Old 04-10-24, 06:10 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
the references to early steel bike conversion failures were made in support of the idea that disc brakes require stronger forks....which some people don't seem to accept
Ummm ... yah, not so.

People understand quite clearly that disc forks need to be stronger than rim-brake forks. The unsupported claim being made repeatedly is that because of this, disc forks are too heavy and have no "feel," no "liveliness," and have adverse effects on handling.

You went to a guy who builds steel bikes who knew you wanted a steel bike and he told you that if he built you a steel bike with a disc fork it wouldn't have the same feel as a steel rim-brake fork, which he knew was what you wanted. And all that is fine. And none of that is about anything but your personal preferences.

If my all-steel Raleigh needed a new fork, I would happily go with carbon and not worry about the "feel." You might be different, and that is fine. But let's not perpetuate this nonsense that disc-brake bikes have no "feel" or "cannot handle" or any of that.

"Ride what you like" is not synonymous with "Crap on what you don't like" or even "Explain to others why what you like is somehow 'better'," IMO.

Glad you have a bike you like.

Most of my bikes have rim brakes. Great bikes which serve my needs. So what?
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Old 04-10-24, 06:33 AM
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I think people who have a problem with what @squirtdad reported would probably make better use of their time by taking the debate to the guy who actually made the statement in question--Dave Kirk.

But nah, much easier and more forum-like to just kill the messenger.

Last edited by smd4; 04-10-24 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 04-10-24, 07:11 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by smd4
I think people who have a problem with what @squirtdad reported would probably make better use of their time by taking the debate to the guy who actually made the statement in question--Dave Kirk.

But nah, much easier and more forum-like to just kill the messenger.
So sorry that once again, you either failed to read or failed to comprehend the content of a post ... and chose to find fault with it anyway.

Par for this particular course.
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Old 04-10-24, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
So sorry that once again, you either failed to read or failed to comprehend the content of a post ... and chose to find fault with it anyway.

Par for this particular course.
Oh, I comprehend just fine. Again, if you dispute the claim @squirtdad made that he relates that his custom builder told him, take it up with the custom builder.

But you won't. Much easier to pick on a Forum member from the confines of your basement than going to the source. Surprised you don't make a legal "hearsay" objection.

Last edited by smd4; 04-10-24 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 04-10-24, 07:45 AM
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Dave Kirkís own personal race bikes appear to feature disc brakes, so I guess fork design wasnít a major compromise for handling. I think that was all anyone was questioning above.
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Old 04-10-24, 09:59 AM
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I have been away from cycling for almost 2 decades, my new Trek has disc's, and I love them, I find they are an improvement in every way
(and I like retro things LOL)

Jeff
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Old 04-10-24, 10:17 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by JeffAP60
I have been away from cycling for almost 2 decades, my new Trek has disc's, and I love them, I find they are an improvement in every way
(and I like retro things LOL)

Jeff
Thank you Jeff for your analysis, even from a retro-perspective. I couldnít agree more.
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Old 04-10-24, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Ummm ... yah, not so.

People understand quite clearly that disc forks need to be stronger than rim-brake forks. The unsupported claim being made repeatedly is that because of this, disc forks are too heavy and have no "feel," no "liveliness," and have adverse effects on handling.

You went to a guy who builds steel bikes who knew you wanted a steel bike and he told you that if he built you a steel bike with a disc fork it wouldn't have the same feel as a steel rim-brake fork, which he knew was what you wanted. And all that is fine. And none of that is about anything but your personal preferences.

If my all-steel Raleigh needed a new fork, I would happily go with carbon and not worry about the "feel." You might be different, and that is fine. But let's not perpetuate this nonsense that disc-brake bikes have no "feel" or "cannot handle" or any of that.

"Ride what you like" is not synonymous with "Crap on what you don't like" or even "Explain to others why what you like is somehow 'better'," IMO.

Glad you have a bike you like.

Most of my bikes have rim brakes. Great bikes which serve my needs. So what?
hmmmm where to start

"People understand quite clearly that disc forks need to be stronger than rim-brake forks". Not everyone seems to gets this, but we can leave it as stipulated

"The unsupported claim being made repeatedly is that because of this, disc forks are too heavy and have no "feel," no "liveliness," and have adverse effects on handling"
Not at all the points I made. Never did I state all disc forks are too heavy with no feeling, liveliness, and adverse handling. What I stated was that per the builder I was working with, that a rim brake fork will have better feel, liveliness and handling as compared to the forks he builds for disc brakes in steel. again as noted I did not record his exact words, so handling could have been the least impacted of these...I was looking at the overall


"You went to a guy who builds steel bikes who knew you wanted a steel bike and he told you that if he built you a steel bike with a disc fork it wouldn't have the same feel as a steel rim-brake fork, which he knew was what you wanted. And all that is fine. And none of that is about anything but your personal preferences"
complete BS. How in the world do you know what I was thinking? I don't recall you being there for the conversation. I had a detailed conversation with the builder on all details. As this was a once in a life time build I explored all options which we looked at pros and cons/tradeoffs based on my vision for the bike. example my preference was for lugged construction, one trade off was maxing tires at 32....could have gone to 35 easily with filet construction. I did not go in thinking rim brakes...this was probably the area I was most flexible on, I had 2 discussion with the builder one in person after a Cino and the other via phone. He was happy to build either, but wanted best fit for me and my riding......which was rim brakes with the matching fork

If my all-steel Raleigh needed a new fork, I would happily go with carbon and not worry about the "feel." You might be different, and that is fine. But let's not perpetuate this nonsense that disc-brake bikes have no "feel" or "cannot handle" or any of that.
Again never said that once.

"Ride what you like" is not synonymous with "Crap on what you don't like" or even "Explain to others why what you like is somehow 'better'," IMO.
Agree 100%, but never once did i do either of these in all the posts i have made on this subject , I said there is a trade off due to fork strength needs, I noted that maybe carbon is better able to engineers this than steel. I never once said rim breaks are better than disc. but your post sure feels to me like an overall general crap on post, especially with all the incorrect details and wild assumptions
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Old 04-10-24, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Dave Kirkís own personal race bikes appear to feature disc brakes, so I guess fork design wasnít a major compromise for handling. I think that was all anyone was questioning above.
LOL. no where did I ever say major. consistently noted better....how much better is hard to say..... I don't think Dave would let anything bad come out of his shop, he is very serious that way.

Based on Dave's posts and site

his current personal bike is Montana Road bike version of the Onesto Fillet frameset. The main aims with the bike are to have it be simple, light, efficient and fun. So Sram AXS 1X, Velo Orange rim brakes, Red Shift Stem, Cane Creek post, Rene Herse tires and my new Hunt 36 Wide Aero wheels. It is beautiful..... take a look

before that he was riding
he is riding a bike he built in 2017 with dura ace 9100 and rim brakes. (per his site)
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Old 04-10-24, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PromptCritical
Technically accurate, but I've never thought of a Buell as flickable.......
Ever ride one? And it is relative. It is relative to what it would be without the lighter rims. It also gave good braking with good heat dissipation, preventing brake fade.
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Old 04-10-24, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by phughes
Ever ride one? And it is relative. It is relative to what it would be without the lighter rims. It also gave good braking with good heat dissipation, preventing brake fade.
Never ridden one, but I raced against one @ Sonoma Raceway.
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Old 04-10-24, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PromptCritical
Never ridden one, but I raced against one @ Sonoma Raceway.
So you have no idea how they feel to ride. And once again, it is about how it would feel with standard disc brakes with a heavier rim, compared to the rim mounted brake rotor with a lighter rim.
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Old 04-10-24, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
LOL. no where did I ever say major. consistently noted better....how much better is hard to say..... I don't think Dave would let anything bad come out of his shop, he is very serious that way.

Based on Dave's posts and site

his current personal bike is Montana Road bike version of the Onesto Fillet frameset. The main aims with the bike are to have it be simple, light, efficient and fun. So Sram AXS 1X, Velo Orange rim brakes, Red Shift Stem, Cane Creek post, Rene Herse tires and my new Hunt 36 Wide Aero wheels. It is beautiful..... take a look https://www.instagram.com/p/CuiAsokS9OO/?img_index=1

before that he was riding
he is riding a bike he built in 2017 with dura ace 9100 and rim brakes. (per his site)
Sorry, I didnít really mean that literally. I meant that the difference must be pretty minor, whatever that difference is. I expect it is very subjective as most handling traits are.

Dave Kirk seems like he knows what heís doing with steel and puts a lot of thought into his bikes.
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Old 04-10-24, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by phughes
So you have no idea how they feel to ride. And once again, it is about how it would feel with standard disc brakes with a heavier rim, compared to the rim mounted brake rotor with a lighter rim.
Yep, you're right. After having ridden myriads of bikes on the dirt and street (weighing between 175# to 600+#) over 60 years, I have absolutely NO idea how a large bike like a Buell would handle compared to any other smaller, lighter bike. My bad. Please accept my apologies.
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Old 04-10-24, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PromptCritical
Yep, you're right. After having ridden myriads of bikes on the dirt and street (weighing between 175# to 600+#) over 60 years, I have absolutely NO idea how a large bike like a Buell would handle compared to any other smaller, lighter bike. My bad. Please accept my apologies.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. The comparison is between the Buel with heavier wheels and the same Buel with lighter rims as allowed by using the rim mounted disc.

As for flick able bigbikes in general, of the most flickable I have owned was an old ZX1000R which stock was a pig. I had Performance Machine Chicane rims on it which made it very light feeling and flickable. I replaced it with an RC51, which wasn't really flickable, but was extremely solid and stable in corners.

As for bikes I've ridden, I used to help run a motorcycle dealership so I had my pick, and truly love small, lightweight bikes like the Honda RS125 and RS250. I've ridden pretty much everything. One of my favorites to ride though was a full race prepped CBR900 which had the most supple suspension I have ridden. Truly fun to ride and easy to power out of corners spinning the rear tire on corner exits bringing the front up.

I'm a bit more sedate now generally speaking, but I still enjoy the twisty roads here in SW Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Basically all I use are motorcycles all year long, even in snow. My car is only used to go to the airport or other business trips. Everything else is on a bike.
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Old 04-10-24, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by phughes
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. .
Thanks for the various insults. I'm done with this conversation as I generally refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
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Old 04-10-24, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PromptCritical
Thanks for the various insults. I'm done with this conversation as I generally refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Simply responded to your snark. You responded all hurt that I didn't recognize your great riding abilities, which I honestly do not doubt, but you obviously did not read what I wrote, in comparing the Buel to the Buel.

Have a good day.

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Old 04-11-24, 04:51 AM
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I don't get this thread.

The issue isn't which you like more or which prefer. The problem is bike industry getting rid of choices. This has to be the only hobby where people spend thousands and happy to have choices and options eliminated and happy to let bike industry spoon feed **** for problems that don't exist. This should be a hobby instead encourage and support any bike builder to build what they want. As someone said new frames and new groupsets, no choices. Alll boring bland same looking bikes.
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Old 04-11-24, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad
I don't get this thread.

The issue isn't which you like more or which prefer. The problem is bike industry getting rid of choices. This has to be the only hobby where people spend thousands and happy to have choices and options eliminated and happy to let bike industry spoon feed **** for problems that don't exist. This should be a hobby instead encourage and support any bike builder to build what they want. As someone said new frames and new groupsets, no choices. Alll boring bland same looking bikes.
So are you suggesting that there are less choices of bikes and components today than at any point in the past? Thatís not what Iíve seen in the last 50 years. If I want to buy a bike today there are far more choices both in mainstream and niche markets.
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Old 04-12-24, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad
. This has to be the only hobby where people spend thousands and happy to have choices and options eliminated and happy to let bike industry spoon feed **** for problems that don't exist.
Try buying an affordable small sports car with a manual transmission.
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Old 04-12-24, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Try buying an affordable small sports car with a manual transmission.
My son wants a 370z. They seem plentiful and affordable.

Oh! You mean something new? Yeah. Just like bikes, if you want cool stuff you have to buy old stuff.
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Old 04-12-24, 05:27 AM
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Yeah I was looking at the Ford website and was disappointed that they have deleted the Model T. They just donít have any choice these days.
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Old 04-12-24, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by petehski
yeah i was looking at the ford website and was disappointed that they have deleted the model t. They just donít have any choice these days.
ikr?
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Old 04-12-24, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Try buying an affordable small sports car with a manual transmission.
Miata?
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Old 04-12-24, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Try buying an affordable small sports car with a manual transmission.
or any car with a manual for that matter or being able to lock with a small key that you can take surfing or kayaking. Keeping my 2014 A4 6 speed as long as i can for those features
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