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Confusion about tire TALLNESS

Old 05-17-24, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by elcyc
Car tire nomenclature has one useful "metric" that bike tires could also use: "LOW PROFILE" .
This makes no sense. The only thing a tire could do to make it "low profile" would be to thin the tread at the center of the tire, and even that would have very little influence on the height of the tire.
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Old 05-17-24, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by elcyc
First a correction… the tires on THIS Miyata are 700 x 23c, Michelin hi-lite supercomp. So even narrower than its spec sheet.
I did not use calipers, but simply eyeballing the rims —and dimensions look very close, The stock Fuji tires on stock Fuji rims overhang (fatness) as much as when I installed the Fuji tires on Miyata rims. It’s JUST the Miyata brake calipers that rub those tires when inflated — maybe 2mm is all I need. The Miyata frame will otherwise easily fit quite a wide variety of “fat” 700c tires.
All that said, and actually riding the 512 today, I might be okay with very good low profiles as the Michelins are not as hard as I assumed.
Something soft and quiet.
Calipers are cheap if you don't own a pair. I'd bet money that those Michelins are narrower than the spec, that was the trend when those tires were made. So modern 23s would likely be bigger all around.
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Old 05-17-24, 11:41 AM
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Just checked ... the stock tires on the Fuji are Kenda 700c x 28c. Made in China.
The Fuji accumulated only 400 miles or so July 2010- May 2020. And the front Kenda develped some sort of dry-rot crack. Replaced with 700c x 32c Continental Ride Tour.
Been riding Fuji much more these past few years, Maybe 1000 miles/year. With just gentle road use and backpack. The Conti's are holding up very well. I have used Conti's on my Gary Fisher commuter, 26" x 1.75". The quality/durability of Conti has sunk somewhat over the past few decades.
But I may still opt for, say, Continental Ultra Sport III 700x23 at $55/pair/delivered, for the Miyata. Unless someone can suggest a "better" alternative for similar $. The tire does not have to perform. But it should be quiet and comfortable and have good traction for safety.
I don't ride hard or fast and stick to smooth roads and dedicated paths.

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Old 05-17-24, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by elcyc
The quality/durability of Conti has sunk somewhat over the past few decades.
BS. While the Ultra Sport is the bottom of the Conti road line, I think you'll find it superior to any cheap tire you rode decades ago.
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Old 05-17-24, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
BS. While the Ultra Sport is the bottom of the Conti road line, I think you'll find it superior to any cheap tire you rode decades ago.
I've bashed Ultra Sports in the past. But I most certainly agree that the Ultra Sports today are probably way better for rolling resistance and giving a smoother ride than the ones I was using that were probably from the early 2000's.

However I've since found that the extra money for the better tires more than makes up for the price with their better ride, better rolling resistance and better grip.
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Old 05-17-24, 01:36 PM
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I agree. They are better than tires of yore but not much to recommend them, other than initial low cost. And that's not saying they are better or worse than other cheap tires.
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Old 05-17-24, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
I have learned time and time again that eyeballing things is far from accurate. Different shades of color, shadows, shapes, forced perspective, etc. can trick the eye.



That's not actually a small amount considering what you're asking. The typical rubber of the tread on a tire is probably about 2mm thick, so shaving the tire down would not help. Might be able to shave off 2mm from the underside of the caliper, but I would consider that a risky move. You could possibly change to a caliper with more clearance.
There are significant differences in caliper depth. I haven't made a study but stumbled on an example. Two very short sidepull rear calipersrun on two Pro Miyatas. (I haven't made all the checks but I believe these frames are identical to Japanese standards except probably year and the chain hanger pin detail on the seatstay.) One frame had a Cyclone caliper. Tire hit it long before the brake bridge and limited me to a 24c tire. A 25c tire that measured on the money hit. Slightly under 23c tire fit comfortably. The second bike got the Superbe-looking DiaCompe calipers. (Both brakes on both bike required the pads to be pushed all the way up. Clearly the bikes were designed around that minimum reach. The DiaCompe had lots of clearance. In fact, as much as the brake bridge. Haven't tried yet but I"m quite certain I can run 25s just fine.
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Old 05-18-24, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Calipers are cheap if you don't own a pair. I'd bet money that those Michelins are narrower than the spec, that was the trend when those tires were made. So modern 23s would likely be bigger all around.
Using my trusty old analog :slide-rule: type calipers, I measured the OD of Fuji rims to be 1mm more wider than originals. Didn't remove the tire so no clue about ID or vertical dimensions. I did notice that initially inflating the tire, the seat was variable; caused by missing chunks of tube liner. Temporarily, I'm only using two layers 3M magic [Super Hold] Scotch tape as I did not have any liners in the house.

Last edited by elcyc; 05-18-24 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 05-18-24, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by elcyc
Using my trusty old analog :slide-rule: type calipers, I measured the OD of Fuji rims to be 1mm more wider than originals. Didn't remove the tire so no clue about ID or vertical dimensions. I did notice that initially inflating the tire, the seat was variable; caused my missing chunks of tube liner. Temporarily, I'm only using two layers 3M magic Scotch tape as I did not have any liners in the house.
Scotch tape used as rim tape (not "tube liner"), as an emergency fix? That's going to tear away at the spoke holes, and rather quickly.

Duct tape would have been better. Or even reinforced strapping tape.
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Old 05-18-24, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by elcyc
Using my trusty old analog :slide-rule: type calipers, I measured the OD of Fuji rims to be 1mm more wider than originals. Didn't remove the tire so no clue about ID or vertical dimensions. I did notice that initially inflating the tire, the seat was variable; caused my missing chunks of tube liner. Temporarily, I'm only using two layers 3M magic Scotch tape as I did not have any liners in the house.
I'm not too interested in the rim widths, more the inflated tire widths.
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Old 05-18-24, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Scotch tape used as rim tape (not "tube liner"), as an emergency fix? That's going to tear away at the spoke holes, and rather quickly.

Duct tape would have been better. Or even reinforced strapping tape.
The Scotch tape thing would be something I would do in an emergency not at home where I have more options or ability to go out. I would use the scotch tape if I was on the road and somehow the gas station only had that and no rubber strips or candy bars or duct tape or anything else and there was no other shops for miles of any kind. Maybe I would use some ClifBar or candy bar wrappers with some Scotch tape to hold them together or something like that but I would have just said screw it and cut up an old tube and that would get me going.
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Old 05-22-24, 08:02 AM
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IME it is a trial and error thing. In the past, I have noted that Conti 4000 and 5000 had different width and height with the same labeled size. Others have noted this as well.

So, either buy what you already know works, or go to your LBS and have them install your new tires. If they don't fit, they'll drop down a size and out you go.
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Old 05-23-24, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 13ollocks
the problem with that is that low-profile car tires are augmented by active suspension. For most road bikes, that ~1” of air between the tread and the rim is your only suspension element. You need that height to avoid destroying your rim and/or rattling your teeth out of your head
Small thing, just for clarity. Most cars have simply "suspension", or more accurately "passive suspension". "Active" suspension is where the engine or an electric motor drive a hydraulic pump that inputs hydraulic pressure to the dampers to counteract vehicle body or suspension motion. They have also done this experimentally with electromagnetic servos instead of hydraulics. Both take energy, with a consequence in fuel consumption. "Semi active" suspension does not input energy to the dampers, but uses a small amount of electric power to control the damper valving to achieve much of the same goals as "full-active", but at far less energy cost. For example, if a vehicle corners hard and the body leans, active dampers correct that lean. With semi active, the computer senses a rapid change in the steering wheel position sensor and/or yaw sensor, and closes the damper valving to impede body rolling before it occurs. A different approach still, is the mechanically-active damper; Instead of hydraulic energy input, the damper has a self-contained mechanism that harnesses the kinetic energy of the suspension and body movement and converts that to hydraulic fluid pressure, and uses this to provide suspension/body "leveling" at zero fuel cost, for load-leveling in pitch, or leveling in roll, as the damper cannot tell which is off, it only knows that position is not correct and adjusts to desired design height.
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Old 05-23-24, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Small thing, just for clarity. Most cars have simply "suspension", or more accurately "passive suspension". "Active" suspension is where the engine or an electric motor drive a hydraulic pump that inputs hydraulic pressure to the dampers to counteract vehicle body or suspension motion. They have also done this experimentally with electromagnetic servos instead of hydraulics. Both take energy, with a consequence in fuel consumption. "Semi active" suspension does not input energy to the dampers, but uses a small amount of electric power to control the damper valving to achieve much of the same goals as "full-active", but at far less energy cost. For example, if a vehicle corners hard and the body leans, active dampers correct that lean. With semi active, the computer senses a rapid change in the steering wheel position sensor and/or yaw sensor, and closes the damper valving to impede body rolling before it occurs. A different approach still, is the mechanically-active damper; Instead of hydraulic energy input, the damper has a self-contained mechanism that harnesses the kinetic energy of the suspension and body movement and converts that to hydraulic fluid pressure, and uses this to provide suspension/body "leveling" at zero fuel cost, for load-leveling in pitch, or leveling in roll, as the damper cannot tell which is off, it only knows that position is not correct and adjusts to desired design height.
Fair - failure in terminology on my part.
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Old 05-25-24, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 13ollocks
Fair - failure in terminology on my part.
Oh no worries. I was a specialist in the area. I was asked about the above in my job interview fresh out of university, aced it. No other candidates. Was not taught in school. I picked up from reading car mags, this was new tech on the market. I got the job.

I only ever seek to inform. Never condemn.

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Old 05-25-24, 04:38 AM
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