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35mm v 45mm

Old 05-28-24, 04:51 PM
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35mm v 45mm

My bike finally arrives this week. I bought an extra carbon OE wheelset with matching cassette and rotor for the disc. I am told this will make tire swapping hassle-free. The set on the bike will have 700x38 Marathon Plus for daily commuting and city trekking. The second set is for the rail tracks and more rural roads at the cottage, nothing too extreme; harpack dirt and gravel and pavement. I am debating between tubeless 700x35 and 700x45 fast-rolling gravel tires for this set.

The 45 will be more comfortable and stable and the 35 will roll faster and climb easier, with tire pressure and tread being equal ?
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Old 05-28-24, 05:24 PM
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If you need 38s for pavement, 35s for other wouldn't make much sense.
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Old 05-28-24, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeDeason
.... 700x38 Marathon Plus for daily commuting ..... The second set is for the rail tracks and more rural roads at the cottage, nothing too extreme; harpack dirt and gravel and pavement. I am debating between tubeless 700x35 and 700x45 fast-rolling gravel tires for this set.
It should be the other way around. The daily commute should be done on the tubeless tires. I don't know how often you go to 'the cottage'. If it's a seasonal thing then you don't want tubeless. YOu don't want to stow away tubeless wheels with sealant inside for the winter.
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Old 05-28-24, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
If you need 38s for pavement, 35s for other wouldn't make much sense.
good point. But I can air down a lot with the tubeless setup on the second wheelset and the treads are designed for gravel. I put 38 Marathon Plus on the stock because they do well in winter, are stable when you hit cracked pavement and the bike will be stored outside. I don't want to worry about sealant maintenance. The Marathon Plus are basically a flat free tire

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Old 05-28-24, 06:39 PM
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This is what is confusing my choice. WHY would someone buying a slick speed-designed gravel tire go with the 45mm ??

https://www.schwalbetires.com/Schwal...ne-RS-11654390
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Old 05-28-24, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeDeason
The 45 will be more comfortable and stable and the 35 will roll faster and climb easier, with tire pressure and tread being equal ?
You shouldn't have equal tire pressure with those two sizes though.
If tire pressure is equal, the 45mm should roll faster than the 35mm tire.
But again, there should be a lower psi in the 45mm tire.

Originally Posted by MikeDeason
This is what is confusing my choice. WHY would someone buying a slick speed-designed gravel tire go with the 45mm ??
https://www.schwalbetires.com/Schwal...ne-RS-11654390
A 45mm slick is made because it appeals to some consumers. I ride gravel tires that are largely/effectively slick in the middle because I haven't found that knobs are needed for my gravel roads. A tire with volume is enough for the gravel roads I ride because very little of it is loose dust/dirt where small middle knobs will help.
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Old 05-28-24, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeDeason
good point. But I can air down a lot with the tubeless setup on the second wheelset and the treads are designed for gravel. I put 38 Marathon Plus on the stock because they do well in winter, are stable when you hit cracked pavement and the bike will be stored outside. I don't want to worry about sealant maintenance. The Marathon Plus are basically a flat free tire
Exactly, and when Marathon Plus are offered in a tubeless format, that is when I'll consider tubeless. There was another regular poster who pre-dates you, who was in your dilemma. I knew their capabilities as well as it is possible to do, given the limitations of social media. I told them "don't do it, tubeless is not for you". They didn't listen. I don't count the threads they've started with their tubeless issues. There are several posters here who could make tubeless work. I'm probably one of them, but I simply won't do it. Not until the tires are ready. When bias ply tubed automobile tires went tubeless it wouldn't have worked if drivers had to depend on Stan's Sealant in the tire! Auto tires are damn close to bulletproof and only get stronger every year. THAT is what makes automotive tubeless a game changer. A word to the wise ...
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Old 05-28-24, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
You shouldn't have equal tire pressure with those two sizes though.
If tire pressure is equal, the 45mm should roll faster than the 35mm tire.
But again, there should be a lower psi in the 45mm tire.
You are correct: 35mm and 45mm should NOT have equal pressures. What you were trying to say though, was that if the 45mm is given the "proper" pressure (lower) it will roll faster than the 35mm. That unHoly alliance of Rene Herse and Jan Heini or whatever their names are told you that. What no one ever says is that a 45mm tire MUST be heavier than a 35mm and both of them MUST be heavier still than a 25mm tire and, given the importance of rotating weight in a tire ... I'm not seeing that a 45mm can be faster than a 35mm. On some surfaces, yes. But most of us don't ride on those surfaces. Most of us ride asphalt and yet we carry a gravel mentality around with us and look for tires that have no chance of fitting the bikes we own. And we run them at impossibly low pressures. And we convince ourselves that we are 'faster' AND more comfortable too. Whatever.
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Old 05-28-24, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm

Friends don't let friends go tubeless.
LMAO.

I tried tubeless this month. Didn’t work after about four tries. Now all that nasty smelly stuff that ruins clothes and barely washes off is gone. Good riddance!
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Old 05-28-24, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
You are correct: 35mm and 45mm should NOT have equal pressures. What you were trying to say though, was that if the 45mm is given the "proper" pressure (lower) it will roll faster than the 35mm. That unHoly alliance of Rene Herse and Jan Heini or whatever their names are told you that. What no one ever says is that a 45mm tire MUST be heavier than a 35mm and both of them MUST be heavier still than a 25mm tire and, given the importance of rotating weight in a tire ... I'm not seeing that a 45mm can be faster than a 35mm. On some surfaces, yes. But most of us don't ride on those surfaces. Most of us ride asphalt and yet we carry a gravel mentality around with us and look for tires that have no chance of fitting the bikes we own. And we run them at impossibly low pressures. And we convince ourselves that we are 'faster' AND more comfortable too. Whatever.
Um...I meant what I posted.
At the same psi, a wider tire rolls faster.
With proper psi for width, a wider tire rolls slower.
See the 2 screen shots then read the comment from some Euro expert below.

As for the rest of your rant...well I am not licensed to help you properly unpack all that.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison




https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/...ower-brethren/
Here is what Wolf VormWalde, tire designer for Specialized, says: “’Wider is faster’ holds for clincher and tubular tires under the condition of the same air pressure.
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Old 05-28-24, 10:58 PM
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Those tire sizes and those pressures in the sources you posted have ZERO correlation to the o.p. 35mm vs 45mm and pressures that might be appropriate for those tires.
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Old 05-28-24, 11:01 PM
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On a different thread, someone asking advice on a new gravel bike, one good deal had 650B/"27-5" tires, and I questioned the merit versus 26" MTB, but then it was pointed out that this swaps easy for 700c on the same bike if equipped with discs, similar outside diameter, but the 650B allows for a huge increase in section height and width (provided sufficient frame and fork clearance, which that bike had). I currently don't need that much cush, but if I was buying a new large-wheel bike, it would be appealing to know that was available as an option. And another vote for discs.
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Old 05-28-24, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Those tire sizes and those pressures in the sources you posted have ZERO correlation to the o.p. 35mm vs 45mm and pressures that might be appropriate for those tires.
OK, here is the same tire in 40, 44, and 48.
Does this example have any correlation, or will you exclude it too?

The numbers again match what I posted earlier and what has been documented countless times.
Rolling resistance increases when tire size is wider and psi drops.

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Old 05-29-24, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Exactly, and when Marathon Plus are offered in a tubeless format, that is when I'll consider tubeless. There was another regular poster who pre-dates you, who was in your dilemma. I knew their capabilities as well as it is possible to do, given the limitations of social media. I told them "don't do it, tubeless is not for you". They didn't listen. I don't count the threads they've started with their tubeless issues. There are several posters here who could make tubeless work. I'm probably one of them, but I simply won't do it. Not until the tires are ready. When bias ply tubed automobile tires went tubeless it wouldn't have worked if drivers had to depend on Stan's Sealant in the tire! Auto tires are damn close to bulletproof and only get stronger every year. THAT is what makes automotive tubeless a game changer. A word to the wise ...
A dozen years ago what you wrote would have been prudent. But now, in the year 2024, tubeless has been extremely well proven in low pressure applications. In that 35-45mm range that the OP is considering, tubeless is a no brainer.
Now tubeless has a learning curve. And there are some important considerations in choosing the wheels, tires and sealant. But once you got that sorted out, it really is the best option.
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Old 05-29-24, 12:22 AM
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About as simple as I can make it: The examples given do not reflect reality. Yes, decreasing pressure and wider tire increases rolling resistance. No argument. Increasing tire pressure in the wider tire only decreases rolling resistance to a point because a wider tire cannot take enough of a higher pressure to make up for its increased mass. Steady state rolling resistance is only part of it. Acceleration of the heavier tire must be taken into account. When I want to go fast I do not take the bike with the 50mm comfort tires. Even if they could (they can't) take the kind of pressure that would let them roll like a 25mm they are still going to weight 3x as much as the smaller tire. That will add up over a long enough ride. Cherry picking tires only 10mm different in section allows people to think they can cheat physics. The extremes show the truth. If it is true for the extremes it is true everywhere. We don't ride charts. Are we going to see 2.5" or 3" tires on road-bikes? Why not?
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Old 05-29-24, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
About as simple as I can make it: The examples given do not reflect reality. Yes, decreasing pressure and wider tire increases rolling resistance. No argument. Increasing tire pressure in the wider tire only decreases rolling resistance to a point because a wider tire cannot take enough of a higher pressure to make up for its increased mass. Steady state rolling resistance is only part of it. Acceleration of the heavier tire must be taken into account. When I want to go fast I do not take the bike with the 50mm comfort tires. Even if they could (they can't) take the kind of pressure that would let them roll like a 25mm they are still going to weight 3x as much as the smaller tire. That will add up over a long enough ride. Cherry picking tires only 10mm different in section allows people to think they can cheat physics. The extremes show the truth. If it is true for the extremes it is true everywhere. We don't ride charts. Are we going to see 2.5" or 3" tires on road-bikes? Why not?
Your condescending tone would be somewhat more acceptable if you posted anything other than baseless speculation while rejecting all the data provided by other posters. As it is your posts are just yelling "I'm right, goddaminit!" and stamping your feet.
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Old 05-29-24, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Now tubeless has a learning curve.
I agree. It took this inept monkey 2 tries to have my first successful tubeless setup. I converted my 4th bike now (one set is 28 conti on Bora 35s) and I have no complaints except the mess. I recently put a new tire on a bike and I counted no less than 7 places where I would have had a flat but the sealant did it's job.
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Old 05-29-24, 06:46 AM
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If super-wide low-pressure tires were fastest, every bike in the Giro would be on 650b-50 mm .....

Weight is a big deal on any surface, and aero on the road .... but for less-than-high speeds, the idea that wider, softer tires are always faster ....

I am no scientist, but doesn't the graph in post #13 show that the narrower tires absorb less wattage? And with a little more air, less than when very soft? I am not trying to argue, that is honestly how I read that info. I am willing to be wrong. Please help me see the truth if my reading is inaccurate.

In any case .... my personal finding coupled with that of a Lot of other riders/physicists/researchers is that with a road tire, a little extra width at lower pressure is faster than a narrow, skinny tire at much higher pressure---but i don't assume that is constant across all width/pressure ranges because there are other considerations. (Again, I don't see riders in the World Tour peloton on 50 slicks .... )

If I were looking at two wheel/tire combos for mostly road and mostly gravel, I would go to the two extremes---set up the road ties to maximize road performance (I could always deflate them a little for dirt) and go wide and gnarly for the off-road tires ... for days when I wouldn't be seeing much or any pavement but wanted a fun ride on gravel. I would try to cover as much range as possible with the two wheelsets.

As for pressure .... I'd imagine that wide knobbies on pavement would be Less efficient if really soft, because there would be all kinds of squirming and tire deformation which would absorb energy, while a harder knobby would still be heavy and the knobs would eat eneregy, but only the knobs would flex, mostly, which should save energy. This is based on riding for a lot of decades on every kind of surface and tire, and from experimenting in an only semi-scientific way .... but I try hard not to delude myself.

I read the latest theories ... isn't the guy who started the "wider, softer, is better" also the guy who said steel bikes do a thing called "planing" where they act as giant springs and propel themselves down the road?

Anyway, right or wrong, if it were my bike and my wheels, I would do one pure pavement setup, and one pure dirt setup, knowing that for short distances, and with pressure adjustments, I could ride reasonable well on any surface with either set.
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Old 05-29-24, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PromptCritical
LMAO.

I tried tubeless this month. Didn’t work after about four tries. Now all that nasty smelly stuff that ruins clothes and barely washes off is gone. Good riddance!
You're going to take advice on tubeless from someone who's likely never tried it? Okay...

btw, I've been running tubeless for years and the sealant has never ruined any clothes or been difficult to wash off of my bike. Seems like you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-29-24, 07:08 AM
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How about we argue tubeless/tubes/sew-ups in a different thread .... maybe one of the dozens which have already been inconclusive after dozens of pages of posts?

Then we can debate discs.
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Old 05-29-24, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
You're going to take advice on tubeless from someone who's likely never tried it? Okay...
I'm not taking advice about tubeless. I tried it and decided it is too much of a PITA. I don't ride off-road, so it isn't much of an advantage for me. If the wider tire/lower pressure setup causes a bit more rolling resistance, the greatly improved ride on San Diego's "roads" is worth it.

[/QUOTE]btw, I've been running tubeless for years and the sealant has never ruined any clothes or been difficult to wash off of my bike. Seems like you're doing it wrong.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad to hear that.
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Old 05-29-24, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
The extremes show the truth. If it is true for the extremes it is true everywhere. We don't ride charts. Are we going to see 2.5" or 3" tires on road-bikes? Why not?
No.
As for why not, because...
1- weight
2- the 3" tire won't be inflated to a pressure high enough to roll with less resistance compared to a quality 28-32mm road tire...which is what I have posted about a couple times now.



I responded to the OP with commentary about tires rolling faster. You have interjected with counter comments about tires being faster overall when wind resistance and weight for acceleration are considered.
If you don't see how that is different from what I initially commented in and you pushed back against, that's on you.
You moved the goalposts to argue something related to, yet different from, what I posted. And you have continued to add wind resistance and weight into the mix even though I only talked about tire rolling resistance.

If my comments about tire rolling resistance are incorrect, then address those. If you want to rant on about tire weight slowing a rider down or wind resistance from a larger tire slowing a rider down, do that without quoting my comments that didn't discuss either of those things.
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Old 05-29-24, 08:37 AM
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I am confused.

I think everyone understands that "softer, wider tires roll better" is mostly referring to paved roads and narrow, high-pressure tires versus slighter wider, slightly higher-pressure tires.

Anyone who thinks 5-inch fatbike tires at 4 psi are easier to roll that 28s at 90 psi (or 72 or whatever you prefer ... ) ... should talk to someone who owns a fat bike.

Common sense might not be common but it is generally pretty easy to use.
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Old 05-29-24, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
If my comments about tire rolling resistance are incorrect, then address those. If you want to rant on about tire weight slowing a rider down or wind resistance from a larger tire slowing a rider down, do that without quoting my comments that didn't discuss either of those things.
Your only mistake is arguing with a person who regards his anti-tubeless zealotry with a religious fervor. I mean, look at his sig line; you can't expect a rational discussion.
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Old 05-29-24, 12:02 PM
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Back to road&gravel tire sizes, beyond the bikes with 22/23/25/28mm, I'm running 30mm Schwalbe tubular @80psi, 33mm Soma clinchers @70psi, 38mm RH Barlow Pass @55psi. My rides are 80% paved, 20% unpaved. The gravel I ride (or realistically foresee riding regularly) has a packed surface with varying amounts of loose gravel.

I find the 38's make for a 'taller' feeling ride, not quite the plushness @55psi that some might prefer. The Soma Supple Vitesse (made in Japan) are very nice @70psi - soft on the road, always ready for urban gravel trails. The Schwalbe 30s I bought a few years back to be sturdy street tires = and they are!, could go lower on the pressure for a loose surface.

Conclusion - going from 28 to 38 changed the ride feel on a bike. Sitting taller, or feeling so, more tire noise, slower (heavier?) steering. I would imagine going from 35 to 45 to be similar, depending on one's pressures.

But I'm the guy who is content with 28mm hard road tires for the majority of their riding; and hard 22/23mm if the pavement is generally smooth.

Lots of tires and technologies to choose from. Nobody should be unhappy. If you know what you need it is a smorgasbord market place.
tubular, clincher, tubeless tires
hooked, hookless, tubular rims
carbon and aluminum rims in various depths and numerous spoke types
hubs in different price ranges & styles.
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