You chime in these threads regardless, and you're often creating straw men for your need to insult us with words like "fetish" and "delusion." You have a big problem with old folks pursuing their own tastes.

Old KitchenAid mixers (Hobart era) were fantastic machines. The problem of course was that they weren't selling - everybody was still using the one their mom bought 30 years ago. So they introduced "electronic control". This eliminated the planetary gearbox in the machine (that actually multiplied the torque as RPMs slowed) in favor of a switch that gave many more speeds and made it easier to shift. A bunch of people "upgraded", but the problem was still that the machines simply didn't die.

So KitchenAid took a page from Le Creuset and others and starting making the machines in glossy trendy colors, with cute bowls and accessories to boot. This sold a bunch more as people repurchased simply for the styling.

Nowadays the older ones truly are better because the new internal gears are made of plastic. These new parts strip out after perhaps only a year of home bread or pizza making. Eureka - a machine that looks cool and only lasts a few years!

Don't jump all over me - this is merely a cautionary tale. No reputable company would ever consider putting electronic gear control, hidden plastic parts, cute accessories, or fancy paint on a bike just to drive profit and sales.

I was going to ignore the man. Because instead of addressing the meat of my post - is the modern bike really all that much faster than a well equipped older bike, when ridden at speeds the avg Joe can attain... he took to veiled insults instead. Too cheap... too poor...

Lemme clear it up for him - and this goes for all the hobbies my cheap and poor behind participates in - fishing/boating, camping/RV's, world travel - yep, all hobbies that cheap and broke people do!!

Simple breakdown - I don't buy the hype. I don't buy the marketing. Boats, trucks, cars, RV's, bikes - anything for that matter - prices can be jacked thru the roof for a product with a few extra buttons or gizmos - or "stuff". Stuff that does little or nothing for you other than drain yer wallet.

Fact: (I've posted this here before).
My 2k aluminum Emonda - with a nice set of wheels and tires. Vs a riding buddy of mine who is almost the exact same size as me +/- on a Dogma. 100 mile ride, avg speed 20.7+/- MPH. We traded pulls +/-... our power meters read within 1% of each other. 3 grand all in vs 10+ grand all in. Aero bike, custom bike fit, aero position - vs - and off the shelf, self fitted alloy "entry level" bike. Exact same power out put. I was 100% comfortable - he complained about the ride quality and his position.

And what's funny - my steel 2001 Lemond (and I've posted this here before) is faster than my Emonda. So - a 2001 steel bike... do the logic... would be even faster than the Dogma in this case. And way more frigging comfortable...

Is the Lemond faster than a Dogma in the hands of a pro at pro speeds? No. But for us normal duffers - and face it - most people out tooling around on bikes are normal duffers - it matters little.

But all of that is skewed because, well apparently, I'm probably too cheap and or poor to know the difference.

Well, i've got a 1991 Trek 6000 MTB and a 2018 Scott Scale 930 carbon. Of course the Trek is aluminium so difficult to compare them (and even i have a soft spot for vintage bikes) yet the Scott is far superior in every sense. A huge step forward, a lot better bike.

Didn't. You can't tell if a guy will get dropped (or if he might be off the front) based on power alone. "He'll be x yards behind" is nonsense in the context.

Oh. You're one of those.