Has anybody here gotten their cassettes carbide coated?
#1
la vache fantôme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 6,266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Has anybody here gotten their cassettes carbide coated?
I was just thinking, has anybody here ever thought about carbide coating their cassettes? I use carbide coated end mills and they last much longer than regular High speed steel, I would think this would increase the life of a cassette many times over.
Aside from what I think would make this last the cassette I would ever buy...
It would look very cool!
Aside from what I think would make this last the cassette I would ever buy...
It would look very cool!
__________________
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
#3
Senior Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 3,856
Bikes: Varies by day
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
It seems that if carbide is tough enough for drill bits, it would be tough enough for cassettes. I suspect (though I really don't know) that cost may be a factor? That may even be iffy, because carbide-tipped tools are dirt cheap!
For both light weight and wear resistance, it would seem that a titanium cassette with carbide coating on the teeth couldn't be beat.
Another option for wear resistance might be to use an internally geared hub with a fully-enclosed belt drive!
For both light weight and wear resistance, it would seem that a titanium cassette with carbide coating on the teeth couldn't be beat.
Another option for wear resistance might be to use an internally geared hub with a fully-enclosed belt drive!
__________________
Nishiki road bike, Raleigh road bike, Electra Cruiser Lux 7d, Electra Townie 3i, Electra Townie 1, Whatever I find today!
#4
la vache fantôme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 6,266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
The carbide should not cause issues being brittle, because it is only a coating. I believe these coatings are only a few microns thick. For some cassettes, I am sure it is cheaper to just buy new ones. But if you have a Dura ace or Campy Record cassette, those are pretty high replacement costs. I am going to inquire at work next week about costs.
__________________
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: northern California
Posts: 5,603
Bikes: Bruce Gordon BLT, Cannondale parts bike, Ecodyne recumbent trike, Counterpoint Opus 2, miyata 1000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.
Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
#6
Senior Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 3,856
Bikes: Varies by day
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by phantomcow2
...pretty high replacement costs. I am going to inquire at work next week about costs.
__________________
Nishiki road bike, Raleigh road bike, Electra Cruiser Lux 7d, Electra Townie 3i, Electra Townie 1, Whatever I find today!
#7
Humvee of bikes =Worksman
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
Hard chrome plating will make your sprockets wear almost
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
#8
la vache fantôme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 6,266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by ken cummings
Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.
Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
Many thin carbide coatings would be sprayed on using carbide powders carried by an inert gas stream though a high power electric arc. Sort of a spray painter. Then you would need to machine the coating to smooth it to reduce friction. That is where it could get expensive. My wife once made the diamond abrasives for Anglo-American when we lived in South Africa. Bloody expensive.
__________________
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
#9
Senior Member
Even simpler techniques can be done. Shot-peening and nitriding is used all the time in the hot-rod auto markets. Plenty of shops around that can do that kind of work. Parts treated typically last 2-x as long.
#10
la vache fantôme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 6,266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Even simpler techniques can be done. Shot-peening and nitriding is used all the time in the hot-rod auto markets. Plenty of shops around that can do that kind of work. Parts treated typically last 2-x as long.
If getting the carbide is not cost effective, I might just get another coating
__________________
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
#11
Senior Member
Originally Posted by phantomcow2
Do you mean TiN or TiAlN coatings? I know that is possible, but I really like the carbide gray.
If getting the carbide is not cost effective, I might just get another coating
If getting the carbide is not cost effective, I might just get another coating
ASM International - An Introduction to Nitriding (pdf)
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-15-06 at 09:06 AM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138
Bikes: 2 many
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1266 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
169 Posts
Originally Posted by Tightwad
Hard chrome plating will make your sprockets wear almost
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
forever. However, due to the difference in metals after
plating your chains might not last long at all.
#13
Senior Member
I was going to mention the nitriding, but wonder is warpage from the heat would be a factor.
__________________
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
#14
Time for a change.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Posts: 19,913
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
#15
la vache fantôme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 6,266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by stapfam
Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
Well that is why I would get them coated. End mills (used to shape material into desired product) are often carbide coated. If carbide or one of the nitrides coating can last for machine tools, I am certain it will last for the life of the bicycle.
__________________
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
C://dos
C://dos.run
run.dos.run
#16
Senior Member
Originally Posted by stapfam
Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-15-06 at 08:19 PM.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138
Bikes: 2 many
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1266 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
169 Posts
Originally Posted by stapfam
Don't know about cassettes but it is possible to buy chain rings that are treated- What with I do not know but They certainly do last longer- Till the coating wears off and then they wear just as fast as normal. I used them on my Tandem Crossover chain and you can soon tell when the coating has gone.
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
It's difficult to coat a soft metal like aluminium with a surface-layer. Because that coating will end up cracking easier to due having little support underneath.
I can take a picture of the Shimano book with my camera and post it if you need it. This is old stuff.
#18
Faster but still slow
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 5,978
Bikes: Trek 830 circa 1993 and a Fuji WSD Finest 1.0 2006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Why settle for just titanium carbide or tungsten carbide? Could we go for the ultimate carbide? It is posible to get parts Diamond coated these days.
#19
Just a student
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Yakima, wa
Posts: 277
Bikes: Cannondale, schiwin old road bike fuji a unicycle
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
for alumiumn chainrings you can have them hard anodized
coating your sprockets, if the sprocket is harder than the chain, wouldnt that wear the chain out faster???
coating your sprockets, if the sprocket is harder than the chain, wouldnt that wear the chain out faster???
#20
Gorntastic!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: United States of Mexico
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Carbide coating? Is that what they did to Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back? How do you get your cassette back from Jabba once it is coated?
#21
2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,762
Bikes: 04' Specialized Hardrock Sport, 03' Giant OCR2 (SOLD!), 04' Litespeed Firenze, 04' Giant OCR Touring, 07' Specialized Langster Comp
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
Aluminium forms its own layer, you can force it to get thicker and end up with essentially a form of sapphire on the surface.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.
Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.
Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138
Bikes: 2 many
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1266 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
169 Posts
Originally Posted by slvoid
Aluminium forms its own layer, you can force it to get thicker and end up with essentially a form of sapphire on the surface.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.
Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
When we used to shot peen items for fatigue testing, it increased the fatigue resistance by having the peened areas become super ductile, thereby bending instead of fracturing microscopically where the crystals align, kinda like having a bundle of long pieces of spaghetti vs. a bundle of short pieces, which is more flexible. Only problem I can see is that it'll leave the corner vulnerable and when it eventually rounds out, it'll just tear the whole region out.
Phantom, why don't you make a chainring by sandwiching layers of aluminium and solid carbide with an outer ring of solid carbide. Then PMP etch enough holes in it to make it lighter. Then sit back and realize for the same price, you can buy tons of chainrings. Or cassettes.
Maybe the price of 6 Ultegra cassettes for each single cog. What a deal !
#23
.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,760
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times
in
11 Posts
PhantomCow2, if you've got the dough, this cassette is for you.
titanium nitride, less weight, greater wear reisistance, cool color.
titanium nitride, less weight, greater wear reisistance, cool color.
__________________
#24
By-Tor...or the Snow Dog?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ma
Posts: 6,479
Bikes: Bianchi Cross Concept, Flyte Srs-3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oh man, how much is that? 300?
__________________
----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
#25
2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,762
Bikes: 04' Specialized Hardrock Sport, 03' Giant OCR2 (SOLD!), 04' Litespeed Firenze, 04' Giant OCR Touring, 07' Specialized Langster Comp
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
$700. They also have one that's TiAIN coated, even harder.