markhr

Is this is the beginning of the end for the derailleur and the start of hub/BB gearing being spec'ed as standard?

Really good to see more mainstream manufacturers doing this. Possibly a less complex and easier to use solution than eccentric BB frames.

"Sliding drop outs as standard" I've found so far are Kona, Devinci, Orange, Nicolai and On-One.
"eccentric BB as standard" I've found so far are Cannondale, rocky mountain, Niner and Felt

javna_golina

you think that's the way of the future? Very well then. I'm 18 now, and in 20 years time I'll be a derailleur using 'luddite'

BlazingPedals

Sliding dropouts? Is that another name for horizontal dropouts?

superdex

it's more than horizontal dropouts, it's bolt-on dropout and disk brake mount that sit in the frame. So when you tension the chain, the dropout and the brake mount move together. Solves the issue of SS/FG and disk brakes. Check the rear of this Kona frame:

C Law

Not exactly a new thing though.

I have an EBB equipped Gunnar Ruffian and I have had no problems with it in two years of hard use. The paragon sliders are a sweet setup though

Probably not

markhr

aye - but until now you had to either go to a smaller manufacturer or ask for them as an extra. To have Kona, a better known bike co., start spec'ing as standard is a plus.

supcom

Looks to me more of a way to accommodate disk brakes on a SS MTB than a move toward hub gearing.

The derailleur is alive and well so long as hub gears are heavier and less efficient. And that's not likely to change anytime soon.

markhr

each to their own

anyway, rocky mountain now have an eccentric BB hub geared commuter bike as well

Dahon.Steve

Agreed.

However, it appears this is a more universal solution to the problem of having to have a different frame if you want to run fixed gear, hub gear and derailleur because the dropout supports all three.

javna_golina

I would love a hub geared commuter.

cuda2k

Saw a pair of these at a local frame builder I was visiting yesterday. Interesting concept indeed, one I hadn't heard of till recently (through the website of a certain BF member/aussie frame builder). Certainly has their applications and uses, should be intresting to see where they head from here.

divineAndbright

Theres a picture of an old ballooner from the '30s or so on the nostalgic.net site that has a bizzare 2 speed crank where the gear changing mechanism is in the crank housing, weird stuff.. just goes to show the best ideas came long long ago..

mlts22 

I wouldn't mind a hub for a mountain bike provided:

1: The hub can sport a good amount of gears. The Rohloff 14 gear for example.
2: The hub is comparable in weight to what a RD and cogs would be, especially on a XC bike.
3: The hub can withstand MTB mud, water, abuse, neglect, and the other nasty things that MTB wheels face day in and day out.
4: The hub can work in normal vertical dropouts and work with normal quick-release skewers.
5: The hub is disk brake capable and/or have an internal hand-activated cable drum brake (not a coaster brake) that is well-sealed to resist the elements.

grolby

1. Yep, the Rohloff has enough gears. Actually, the Nexus-8 and new SRAM 9-speed hub might have enough, too, depending upon how many you feel you need.
2. Don't forget the front derailer and two extra chainrings, plus the chain links that you get to delete.
3. Hubs can already take this kind of treatment better than a derailer can. There are some concerns as to whether the Nexus can survive big hits, but I suspect that it's probably pretty tough. This is a non-issue for the Rohloff, which is damn near impossible to break, and the new SRAM hub is supposed to be pretty tough as well.
4. This is simply asking too much. The design of an internal gear hub cannot allow it to meet both of these requirements at once. It may be possible to design a hub and corresponding dropouts that will allow the use of a quick-release of some kind, but I can tell you that this almost certainly won't happen with normal vertical dropouts.
5. There are multiple hubs on the market with these capabilities.

You have some stringent requirements - an internal hub must be lighter AND tougher AND more reliable AND fully interchangeable with derailer wheels. You give the impression that unless an internal gear hub meets every one of these requirements, that it cannot be superior to derailers. That doesn't make much sense to me. Making a decision about your drivetrain or other tech on your bike must always involve certain trade-offs. In certain areas, modern hubs are so far ahead of derailers that it's not even funny (reliable shifting in any conditions you can think of is one of them). In others, derailers still have an edge. If internal-gear hubs were to meet all of these requirements, there would be no more reason to have derailers installed on ANY bike. It would make a lot more sense to make a list of your needs and then see which system fits them better, rather than simply saying "if it isn't better in every way, I'm not buying in."

The sliding dropouts look sweet. I must admit that the presence of moving parts and smaller tiddly bits would make me a bit nervous, but if the engineering is sound then it's an elegant solution to the horizontal dropout problem. It would be pretty neat to see a simple standard design adopted, and installed on most frames, that would allow the use of whatever drivetrain you wanted. Perhaps someday...

shakeNbake

Hmm, I'm more concerned with the serviceability/maintainance. Can you disassemble/reassemble them yourself? I mean, I'm not a good mechanic, but I can take apart and reassemble my derailler.

mlts22 

My apologies. I should have worded it that a hub should have those as factors, not have to supersede all of those at once.

I have never seen a multi-geared hub on a XC MTB (I've seen plenty on DH and FR), and I've always wondered how well they would work out. They don't appear to be that much more heavy than a derailleur and cogs, and the Rohloff 14 speeds look well designed. Anyone try a multiple-geared hub on a XC MTB, and like/hate it? If a hub can fit in normal vertical dropouts, that would be a plus, regardless of skewers. Add to that a hand-activated drum brake, and that covers the range of stuff for the most part.

LWaB

Would you be doing this for fun? The Rohloff is rated for tandem racing, virtually never breaks down and apparently none have worn out in over a decade of use. Admittedly, you should change the oil once or twice a year but disassembly is not required.

cs1

I agree with your statment. The problem is that hub gears are just as efficient, actually more so. The Shimano Nexus hub is a state of the art design. It is virtually bullet proof. Though the hub itself weighs more than a conventional freehub overall I believe it is just as light as a derailluer equipped bike. Remember, with a Nexus you eliminate the 9/10 speed cassette for a much lighter single speed version. The chain is shorter and hence lighter. The rear derailluer is eliminated also. When you figure out the reduction in weight from the parts that changed or were eliminated, they more than make up for the increase in hub weight.

What's more is when the BB/gear box is perfected. The Swiss have a 2/3 speed version out now. It was posted here a few months ago. I believe that eventually the derailluer will be obsolete and all geared bikes will be internally geared. This isn't going to happen immediatley either. I'm sure that it will take many years but it will happen. Internal gearing is so much more efficient than a chain and derailluer.


Tim

C Law

I would go with a disc rohloff in a heartbeat for my MTB if I wanted gears. the only drawback it seems is that there is quite a bit of inefficiency at high gears (granny gearing10-14) from what I hear (despite what rohloff actually reports). It weighs a ton also, but like others have said probably not that much more in the grand scheme of things after you account for the other bits you don't need.

supcom

Could you elaborate on how a geared hub is "so much more efficient than a chain and derailleur"? I'm having a hard time seeing how a complex gearing system improves on the friction losses of two jockey wheels.

BlazingPedals

I'm probably like a lot of riders. If a geared hub were at least as good in ALL of these categories and better in several:

1. weight
2. efficiency
3. durability
4. ease of maintenance
5. ease of repair
6. gear range available
7. ease/quality of operation

...then I might consider it an improvement; otherwise there's little reason for me to switch. And from what I've seen, they're just not there yet. As things stand now, they're best suited for commuter bikes, for which the all-weather operation of a hub gear, which would fall under #7 above, is more important than all the other categories.

FarHorizon

For professional bicycle racing, durability, low-maintenance, and all-weather operation are non-issues. "Low-weight uber alles" is the motto of racers and that isn't going to change. For that reason, derailleurs have a safe haven in the racing world for now. Since 90+ percent of consumer bikes are "racer wannabes" the likelihood of internal-gear hubs making a large inroads to that market is slim, also.

Internal-gear hubs have advantages for commuters, mountain bikers, and cruisers. In that world, I expect internal-gear hubs to achieve heavier market penetration. Of course, I could be wrong...

HardyWeinberg

A drum brake would be great mixed into a rohloff. I was under the impression that a geared hub could work w/ any dropouts as long as a chain tensioner was also used.

What do you mean by inefficiency? Too much friction in the hub so not as much transfer to the chain? I was assuming that the gear-inch results from say Sheldon Brown's page took all that into account. If not, that would be a bummer.

Gearhubs also allow symmetrical rear-wheels, rather than dished. Is that a measurable reliability gain?

DCCommuter

What, your google don't work?

https://sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html

markhr

hope these help

rohloff speedhub

shamino nexus

sturmey archer

sram s7, p5, t3

hub gears