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Are Taiwanese Bikes Made By Slaves?

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Are Taiwanese Bikes Made By Slaves?

Old 01-26-07, 11:40 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by chromedome
Now we just need to get them out of the hands of the maniacs in America.)
Of course we can trust them to the responsible folks in N. Korea and Iraq. They're just looking for a peacefull solution to those nasty Isrealies.

Tim
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Old 01-27-07, 03:06 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by cs1
Of course we can trust them to the responsible folks in N. Korea and Iraq. They're just looking for a peacefull solution to those nasty Isrealies.

Tim
I really, really hope you meant Iran, and just made a typo. Otherwise, I guess there's really no hope for some people.
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Old 01-27-07, 07:57 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by cs1
Of course we can trust them to the responsible folks in N. Korea and Iraq. They're just looking for a peacefull solution to those nasty Isrealies.

Tim
I think you're confusing a bb-gun with a shot gun. What they have are bb-guns. What we have are a bunch of drunk red-necks cocking their 8 gages.
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Old 01-27-07, 08:03 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by chromedome
(And for slvoid: I saw something on History channel just last night about nuc energy, and how America has bought 10,000 nuc war heads from Russia in the last few years, using the uranium for our power plants, and has plans for buying 10,000 more. IF that's true, then at least 10,000 nucs are out of the hands of those maniacs. Now we just need to get them out of the hands of the maniacs in America.)
According to CDI, russia had about 6000 strategic nuclear weapons but treaty limits them (and us) to 3500. But there's no limit to non-strategic weapons, of which they supposedly have anywhere from 6000-13000.

China has 410 though we're not sure how many of those can reach US soil. But the question is how many are required destroy the planet.. I'm guessing a lot fewer than 400.
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Old 01-27-07, 10:01 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by slvoid
According to CDI, russia had about 6000 strategic nuclear weapons but treaty limits them (and us) to 3500. But there's no limit to non-strategic weapons, of which they supposedly have anywhere from 6000-13000.

China has 410 though we're not sure how many of those can reach US soil. But the question is how many are required destroy the planet.. I'm guessing a lot fewer than 400.
Destroy the planet in what sense though? We don't need to make the planet smooth to destroy it. Just make enough havoc. One nuc each for the 19 mega-cities would do a lot of damage. Then one at the headwaters of each major waterway of the world (Mississippi/Missouri, Colorado, Nile, Amazon, Yangtse, Rhine, Seine, what others deliver water for drinking and irrigation?) And one each at all the nuc power plants. Nobody has an infrastructure that can cope with that.
Another issue is whether these systems have been properly maintained, especially since the "end of the cold war."
So, that's 19 megacities + about two dozen river systems + how many functioning nuclear power plants are there? = a lot of havoc.

And I suppose the question for me is not if they can reach US soil, but how do American maniacs react if any of the other maniacs light some up? As long as the big swingin' dicks that we hired rattle their sabres--which they really are doing a lot of--in response to the other big swingin' dicks rattlin' their sabres, (probably just to annoy the other big swingin dicks.....) then we're all at risk. And China just wanted to say in their own special way, "Hey! Look what we can do!"

And to think it comes down to one person who gets up in the morning on the wrong side of the bed and doesn't take his happy pills.

But we still haven't had a definitive answer whether or not there is slavery in bike factories in Taiwan?
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Old 01-27-07, 10:13 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by slvoid
I think you're confusing a bb-gun with a shot gun. What they have are bb-guns. What we have are a bunch of drunk red-necks cocking their 8 gages.
Cool! You've seen an 8 guage shotgun?! Biggest I've seen is a 10. (Yes, I get your point)
BTW, I resemble that redneck remark. Just for the sake of PC, "redneck" was a term used for Scots, many of whom settled in Appalachia, who wore a red scarf around their necks as a symbol of a blood oath they had signed against the Church of England.
Albainn gu-Brath!
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Old 01-27-07, 10:17 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by kjmillig
Cool! You've seen an 8 guage shotgun?! Biggest I've seen is a 10. (Yes, I get your point)
BTW, I resemble that redneck remark.
Yes.. perhaps if you looked further than the confines of the united states, there's larger than 10. Here's a 4.
https://www.tulatoz.ru/en/toz123.html
But I believe they're all illegal, as should be all them nuclear weapons out there.
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Old 01-27-07, 10:20 AM
  #133  
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By destroy I don't mean physically, just make it unable to support human life. I believe a couple hundred nukes is enough, it doesn't matter where you detonate it. A rogue nation can detonate it all on its own soil and the amount of radioactive dust kicked up should take care of everyone else nicely.

Originally Posted by chromedome
Destroy the planet in what sense though? We don't need to make the planet smooth to destroy it. Just make enough havoc. One nuc each for the 19 mega-cities would do a lot of damage. Then one at the headwaters of each major waterway of the world (Mississippi/Missouri, Colorado, Nile, Amazon, Yangtse, Rhine, Seine, what others deliver water for drinking and irrigation?) And one each at all the nuc power plants. Nobody has an infrastructure that can cope with that.
Another issue is whether these systems have been properly maintained, especially since the "end of the cold war."
So, that's 19 megacities + about two dozen river systems + how many functioning nuclear power plants are there? = a lot of havoc.

And I suppose the question for me is not if they can reach US soil, but how do American maniacs react if any of the other maniacs light some up? As long as the big swingin' dicks that we hired rattle their sabres--which they really are doing a lot of--in response to the other big swingin' dicks rattlin' their sabres, (probably just to annoy the other big swingin dicks.....) then we're all at risk. And China just wanted to say in their own special way, "Hey! Look what we can do!"

And to think it comes down to one person who gets up in the morning on the wrong side of the bed and doesn't take his happy pills.

But we still haven't had a definitive answer whether or not there is slavery in bike factories in Taiwan?
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Old 01-27-07, 10:20 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by womble
Lighten up- you're getting a little hysterical with your toy factories -> weapons factories scenarios. I can see why the guy assumes you haven't spent much time out in Asia.

Who cares if his pinyin isn't Mainland standard? He's from Taiwan (which is what is pinyin says, in case you assumed it was some obscure insult).

--womble (who wishes that his Mandarin was good enough to talk about robots with lasers)
What he wrote wasn't complex. And who cares if he speaks mandarin, or any other language? And who cares what he assumes? If he assumes rather than asks, it's his mistake.
And I'm not hysterical about toy factories. You might have wanted to pay attention in history class when you were a kid. It's a common thing for countries to do to retool factories from toys to weapons. The military in a country like America just offers contracts to manufacturing companies to make all the crap they need. There's a lot of profit in that. And it's even easier in countries that still have state-owned plants; they don't even need to ask. But I don't see what that has to do with spending/not spending time in Asia.

Anyway, you're in SAR HK. Is there any slavery there? Are people being forced to work at jobs they don't want, without pay or benefit, unable to leave, and being owned and bought and sold and traded as though they are commodities? That would be my defintion of slavery.
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Old 01-27-07, 10:25 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by slvoid
By destroy I don't mean physically, just make it unable to support human life. I believe a couple hundred nukes is enough, it doesn't matter where you detonate it. A rogue nation can detonate it all on its own soil and the amount of radioactive dust kicked up should take care of everyone else nicely.
Exactly. And that's the point that people just don't get. It wouldn't take a whole lot at all.
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Old 01-27-07, 10:26 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by sdime
Actually, US companies are complicit in a way. It is the tough demands of US companies that drive the ill treatment of workers over there. US companies want low prices, short delivery times, and requiring manufacturers to pay fines if the product isn't produced in time. We cannot simply lay the blame on a wealthy factory owners anymore.
my wife is Filipino and she's offered up an interesting twist on these types of economics. Yes, compared to the US the wages are crap. the conditions are terrible, but when faced with living in a shanty town on the edge of a garbage dump, these wages are a god's send and can result in the family actually eating. Our North American priorities simply don't apply over there.
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Old 01-27-07, 10:29 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by slvoid
Yes.. perhaps if you looked further than the confines of the united states, there's larger than 10. Here's a 4.
https://www.tulatoz.ru/en/toz123.html
But I believe they're all illegal, as should be all them nuclear weapons out there.
And that's the other point. So many people just can't see anything past the reach of their own grasp. But they want to act like they know something about it anyway.
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Old 01-27-07, 11:01 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
my wife is Filipino and she's offered up an interesting twist on these types of economics. Yes, compared to the US the wages are crap. the conditions are terrible, but when faced with living in a shanty town on the edge of a garbage dump, these wages are a god's send and can result in the family actually eating. Our North American priorities simply don't apply over there.
That was discussed to a certain extent on pages three and four, how post-industrial priorities are different (and not necessarily more progressed) than those in industrialized nations. And how living conditions continue to improve because of trade between nations. But it seems as though some people would prefer those conditions don't improve "over there" for those people for whatever reason. You can look at a remarkably insightful post (#66) by alanbikeinhouston where he tells us of millions of people chained inside slave labor camps by murderous dictators, but he ends his message with the innuendo that those people would be better off if we did no business with them.
Your wife is right. Global commerce has done far more than any political entity or rights group has done for people in developing economies. It's as simple as that, like it or not.
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Old 01-27-07, 11:05 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
my wife is Filipino and she's offered up an interesting twist on these types of economics. Yes, compared to the US the wages are crap. the conditions are terrible, but when faced with living in a shanty town on the edge of a garbage dump, these wages are a god's send and can result in the family actually eating. Our North American priorities simply don't apply over there.
Just because we offer them a better alternative than death doesn't make it right.
If I came upon an impovished family somewhere out there about to literally die from hunger and I said, let me **** your daughter and I'll give you a million dollars. You can look at it from 2 points of view.

a) They're getting a million dollars, what the hell are they complaining about?
b) That's just wrong.

But hey, who cares right? They're getting paid, stop whining!
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Old 01-27-07, 11:11 AM
  #140  
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I'll have to put some time aside to read it all, right now i'm going to go play in the snow.
Trying to solve all the worlds woes is certainly not going to be an easy thing to do, what with cause and effect, adding weird gov't structures, corruption, and just downright evil self interest at every level.

The boardrooms are starting slowly to take a more global-centric view of things and it could be an interesting shift.
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Old 01-27-07, 12:52 PM
  #141  
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China is not a thirld world country anymore.
https://www.diserio.com/hkpano.jpg
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Old 01-27-07, 01:07 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by slvoid
Just because we offer them a better alternative than death doesn't make it right.
If I came upon an impovished family somewhere out there about to literally die from hunger and I said, let me **** your daughter and I'll give you a million dollars. You can look at it from 2 points of view.

a) They're getting a million dollars, what the hell are they complaining about?
b) That's just wrong.

But hey, who cares right? They're getting paid, stop whining!
What you described also happens there. It's two completely different things.
As dispicable as it sounds, families of poverty are known to sell off family members so that the family would stand a chance of surviving. Most of us here in the west are living the 1% dream life (roof, clothes, food), and it really hard to wrap your head around how the rest of the world lives sometimes. I think we in the west have quite a skewed notion of "how things really are" sometimes.
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Old 01-28-07, 05:51 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by womble
I really, really hope you meant Iran, and just made a typo. Otherwise, I guess there's really no hope for some people.
Oops. I stand corrected.

Tim
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Old 01-28-07, 10:47 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by chromedome
Anyway, you're in SAR HK. Is there any slavery there? Are people being forced to work at jobs they don't want, without pay or benefit, unable to leave, and being owned and bought and sold and traded as though they are commodities? That would be my defintion of slavery.
Good grief (to use very old fashioned phrase), how can you even ask that question and talk seriously about economics and history at the same time?

I think Machka's post several pages back about McDonalds probably answers the question about Taiwan. Same stands for HK (and probably moreso as it was British governed for decades). The reason I have been unable to take this thread seriously is because I live out in this part of the world so many of these posts just come across as unbelievably insular. Just to make it clear, I think that slavery in Taiwan is about as likely as slavery in the US.

Although if someone wants to be fickle about it, 'slavery' can exist in one form or another anywhere. Certainly in London where there have been investigations into forced prostitution amongst imported Eastern European women.

Last edited by womble; 01-28-07 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 01-29-07, 04:27 AM
  #145  
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Maybe "slavery" is just a description of a range of conditions. It's then used to judge another area using standards from a different area. Just like a European worker can come to the U.S. and see that we don't have government-sponsored universal-healthcare, no 6-weeks paid vacations and then declare, "How barbaric, the U.S. is using its people like slaves!". Hopefully Germany won't bomb us for human-rights violations...
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Old 01-29-07, 10:31 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Maybe "slavery" is just a description of a range of conditions. It's then used to judge another area using standards from a different area. Just like a European worker can come to the U.S. and see that we don't have government-sponsored universal-healthcare, no 6-weeks paid vacations and then declare, "How barbaric, the U.S. is using its people like slaves!". Hopefully Germany won't bomb us for human-rights violations...
Maybe not. The idea that the concept of "slavery" can be flexible seems alarming to me. To what extent can we adjust the description of conditions that we rationalize slavery as acceptable? Its interesting that some Americans can think that anything less than paid vacations and full benes can somehow be construed as slavery.

Oh, but its all for fun. Its a bike forum after all, and we're all just having fun. We can just blow it off, call in sick and go for a bike ride, right? And do any of us actually care if there really is slavery in Taiwan? And if we feel guilty about that little "Made in Taiwan" sticker, we can just scrape it off and not have to look at it anymore! We got some cheap goods and thats all that matters.
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Old 01-29-07, 10:57 AM
  #147  
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^^^ Seems to work for the development of the free market economy...Welcome to unrestrained Capitalism unleashed upon the globe^^^^
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Old 01-29-07, 10:53 PM
  #148  
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Choosing to work a wage that does not allow for more than subsistance, is not what I call freedom. As far as American made options are concerned there are some, but they probably account for less than 2% of the total US bike market.

Here's one.
https://www.circleacycles.com/web/about.asp

Atlas shrugged and moved to China.
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Old 01-31-07, 08:24 AM
  #149  
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Sorry to jump into this thread so far along, haven't read all of the responses. I live in Taiwan, work in Taiwan and ride bicycles in Taiwan. I know Taiwanese bike makers and shopkeepers.

A short, quick, to the point response. NO.

Salaried Taiwanese employees get paid reasonable wages (relative to their country), are restricted on the total number of hours they can work, and have FULL, UNEQUIVOCAL health coverage. At low costs (think $5 to see a doctor). Taiwanese working on wages have it even better, as there are no unpaid hours, and they will be working less.

Unless they are migrant workers (can't speak for that - mainly work in construction) they have a legal 40 hour work week, some benefits, and OSHA (equivalent) regulations.

Taiwan has one of the strongest economies in the world, a free market system and universal health care. Jobs are plentiful, and the cost of living can be amazingly low.

If anything, the only cruelty imposed by having bikes made here is the hit the environment takes. Let's just say most air and water regulations are ... lax. They don't call it Kaohsiung Black Lung (sounds like Gow-Shung) because you can see blue skies. If anything, push for international industrial polluting standards. I breathe all the byproducts of mass production (coal fired power plants / gas refineries) daily, and I've got a knee-knocking cough to prove it.
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Old 01-31-07, 09:06 AM
  #150  
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Just thought I would pull together a few links. First of all, if you consider universal health care to be first-world, then they are beating the U.S. by a large margin in that regard.

Universal Coverage
Taiwan's Healthcare Statistics

Second of all, Taiwanese laborers follow rigid standards of pay, hours of labor, and safety regulations. When taken into account the cost of rent (approx 8,000 NT per month - usually less and that is housing a family of 6-8 most likely) and the cost of food (50 NT for a solid meal of rice, vegetables and meat), the average worker can support his family and extended family pretty easily.

Social Welfare / Minimum Wage

Also, take into account that it is standard for Taiwanese families to live with both sets of grandparents, and, in some cases, aunts, uncles etc. This is not substandard living. This is a cultural situation.

Third, look at the competition even the Taiwanese face from foreign competition. They encounter many of the problems U.S. dealers do. In fact, most bikes are DESIGNED in america by high-paid well-educated American engineers and built in Taiwan to their specifications. They travel over here to compete on a factory to factory basis and ensure the products are as they wanted. If anything, support Taiwan by purchasing their bicycles, as they are coming into competition from "Slave" markets in mainland China.

Bicycle Industry - Scroll down a bit


Now, while Taiwan was a repressive, militaristic government, legislative relaxations in the 70's have transformed this island into a burgeoning democracy. They just went about it in a different way. Instead of democracy first, and free market second, the military government neglected industry and let them develop in a free-for-all sense. As people gained wealth and started to have free time to think, the democracy came about as a result.

Opinion - Ignore as necessary If you look back at America's history, wealth was a direct proponent of the move toward independence. Rich people want freedom. Poor people want money.

End Opinion

Now, migrant workers in Taiwan (from the Philippines primarily - don't even get me started on the sad state of that country) enjoy almost no rights. But, their pay rate is STILL far above what is necessary to live on.

I don't know how to get any more specific. If you want more numbers, I can ask around to some Taiwanese friends for links. But they will most likely be in Chinese.

I hope that clarifies things. Also, Taiwan IS NOT China. They are two separate bodies / countries / whatevers, but they are most certainly, and absolutely, different, divergent and distinguishable from one another in a myriad of ways.

Finally, man do the Taiwanese love their bicycles. These guys can mountain bike like you wouldn't believe. And they are some serious gearheads.
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