Women in the TdF
 

I thought about posting this in Road Racing and Women's Cycling but thought I might get more opinions from both road racers and women here in General Discussion.

Why are there no women riding in the Tour de France, and why does no one think that this is strange ?

The sport of mountain biking at least has women's events, this is some better than no representation at all, but not by much.

I am primarily a runner. When running a marathon, women compete on the same course, at the same time, under the same conditions. Timekeeping is separate, as it is for age groups but other than that women compete the same as everyone else.

There have got to be women who are able to ride a bike well enough to rate a spot on some of those teams. The only thing that I can think of is that the UCI is dominated by Europeans who are slightly more backward in their thinking than other folks in the world. They would call this conservative or traditional.

Any other ideas ?

Dan

There used to be a Womens TDF. Don't know if there still is or not.

I think it's like shooting in the Olympics they have to do it in a way that there is no way to compare the women's scores to men's scores. European men aparently can stand being beaten by a woman. The last time women shot skeet in the Olympics was when a Korean woman one. Poof they need their own sport.

Joe

top female cyclists can only hope to be middle-of-the-pack cyclists in a male-dominated race.... it's just biological limitations, really.

compare it to golf.... the reason why there's an LPGA is because there's no way that most women could hit a ball with as much power as a man could... it would be an unfair competition

and how about the NBA... women have their own basketball league because they tend to be shorter and less powerful on the court...

i don't think it's sexist that women don't play in the NBA or in the PGA... I do believe that they should be free to do so if they like, but i do think they (as a WHOLE) would be at a disadvantage.

plenty of american man don't like it either, look at the uproar over anika sorenson (i'm sure i butchered her name sorry) when she played golf with the men.
i dont see any reason women shouldnt be included in any sport, theres plenty out there that would kick my butt in anything. of course thats not saying a hole lot :).
no reason they shouldnt compete in the tour, if it has to be a separate race, let it start 15 min after the men, or whatever.

They used to run the womens tour ahead of the men.

I think the biological reason (similar to other athletic events) would mean that there would be the necessity for two events anyway.

What are you trying to say, that America is the most civilized country.

Don't look at the peeble in my eye, look at the boulder in yours.

The Grande Boucle Feminine is the Woemn's Tour de France. It is run for two weeks in August. Last year's winner was Joan Sommariba. There is also a women's Giro, the Giro d'Italia Femminile, a women's Amstel Gold, a Women's Fleche Wallonne. In fact, there is a whole calendar of pro women's events at the UCI's road calenar page. Few of these events get much coverage in the US, and get only a smattering of coverage in the European media. This is not much different from the way that women's sports are treated in general.

Coincidentally, I was just having this discussion with my wife last night, and yes, I do think it's strange and unfortunate. I also have heard vague reference to a women's TdF (and a Giro), but if the event does exist, we evidently aren't allowed to hear/see/know about it.

I would prefer to see an event similar to a marathon or triathlon where the women and men compete simultaneously, within the same race. I'm sure the argument against it would be, "tradition," or some similar crap. . .

Someone mentioned that European men would not stand losing to women - well, Euro triathletes and marathoners seem to have gotten past it, I'm sure cyclists can as well. A top athlete, regardless of gender, is an athlete with exceeding capability and I'm sure most will agree that there are some phenomenal women cyclists that are bound to beat both men and women. I fail to see why anyone would feel shame because of this fact.

Shaharidan, do you have any idea how complicated it is to put on the TdF? You have to set up logistics for 200 riders, their support staff, managers and whatnot, the media, you have to make sure that 2,100 miles of roads are adequately paved, policed, secured and closed to traffic in 125 mile chunks for 12 hours every day, you have to manage the media coverage and marketing... it's a huge undertaking! And you want to add another 200 riders, starting fifteen minutes later? That's insane! There is a women's tour. If Americans are ignorant of it, it's because we're willfully ignorant of women's sports in general. We are a backward, sexist people. I mean, when was the last time you watched a women's pro/elite soccer, football, basketball or rugby game. Women's sports (with the exception of tennis) are shamefully underfunded and under exposed, particularly in the good old USofA.

hmmm... you're totally right.

wow i really hit a nerve. i wasnt trying to tick anyone off, i was just saying i think women should be included. and if they aren't gonna race with the men then have a separate race. the 15 min later was just a suggestion :). i know the logistics are difficult, thats why having 2 on the same day might be easier than 2 completely separate races. it would also tend to get better coverage i think.

Several things.

First and foremost, these teams select their riders solely on merit and their ability to fill a needed role. They pay them for that; these are all professionals. If a woman could do the job, she'd be hired.

There are many instances where men's and women's road racing events are held on the same course, on the same day. The women ride shorter distances, but the average speeds for the top finishers are always higher for the men. This is also true in long distance endurance cycling, like RAAM.

While women can obviously be very fit, and a fit woman will beat a less fit man in an endurance competition (and they will all beat me!), there are biological differences -- strength-to-weight ratio, body fat percentage, etc. -- that would take a truly exceptional woman to overcome in competition with the elite male racers. And such a woman would probably end up playing tennis or some other sport where her gifts would be more likely to pay off.

It's not about chauvinism or political incorrectness.

Now, as for parallel events, there has been a "Tour de France Feminin," and there is a version (I forget what they call it now) that takes place in (I think) September. Not the same course -- fewer stages, less severe climbing -- and less public interest for all the obvious reasons.

RichC

I don't think a separate tour really is fair to the women and I don't think that physiology can be used as a justification for keeping women out of the TdF.

Using a marathon for comparison purposes, the men's world record (2:05:38) and women's world record (2:15:26) are separated by less than 10%. My guess is that cycling would not be that much different. I don't know this for a fact but I would bet there is more variablity from the "front of the pack" to the "back of the pack" among the men in the TdF than 10%. This tells me that women would not be stragglers at best.

I also think that any company sponsoring a team with at least one female member would gain a marketing advantage at least in the short term.

I also did not know there was a women's tour. I wish it received more attention. The men's event is pretty much ignored by the mass media. I am not suprised that the women's event is invisible. I would agree that women athletes do not get an equal opportunity in general (funding, programs, salaries, events, endorsements, etc).

Dan

My wife asked me the same thing last night and i didnt have an answer.I would rather watch the women anyway.

Curiously enough I've been know to tune into one of the "for-women" channels (Oxygen) because sometimes they give coverage to women's cycling. My wife has a chuckle over it.

There is a women's TdF and a women's Giro. They are different events.

The bottom line is that women pro cyclists, though amazing athletes, would be dropped on the first stage of the Tour de France. They simply cannot compete at the same level as men, and, quite often, would be eliminated en-masse for failing to make the time limit on longer stages.

The second stage of last year's Grande Boucle Feminine (hereafter GBF) had an average speed of about 24 mph. That was considered a fast stage. In contrast, the third stage of this year's (men's) TdF, considered a fast stage, averaged 30 mph. More tellingly, in last year's World Championship Time Trial, the men's winner, Satiago Botero did the 25 mile course in 48:08:45 (31 mph), while Zoulfia Zabirova completed the much shorter (14 mile) women's course in about 30 minutes (28 mph). You might not thing that 3 mph is a big deal, but any experienced racer knows that 10% extra speed comes at 50% extra effort. I doubt the women could have done the men's course at better than 25 mph average.

Rich Clark is right...There are no rules keeping a woman out of the Tour de France.

Teams are selected to compete in the Tour de France based on points they accumulate throughout the cycling year . The teams are professional and they may hire any rider they like. But the gap between men and women in cycling has been so large that they have never chosen a woman.

The real problem with women in the Tour is the lack of sponsorship dollars. Advertisers who live and die by market research probably don't see too much potential in this market right now for women. Personally, I think they're wrong. Women's sports are bound to genrally be smaller than men's because of general cultural issues. But small sports like women's cycling could develop a very vocal and motivated following.

Women do have a professional season and do their own versions of most of the classics such as The Tour de France Femenin as people have mentioned. It is seriously publicised by the French publicists but it will be a long time before it gets the attention here. Look at the media grubbings the men's tour have been lucky to get. The men have greater power to do greater distances at greater speeds and perhaps with greater recuperative powers, having larger muscle groups and greater lung capacity, but women's physiology allows for greater capacity to preform in long distance events without the danger of "bonking" like the men. Remember women still hold records over men in such long distance events as swimming (a woman holds the record for butterflying across the english channel....talk about needing incredible upper body strength and stamina as any swimmers here will contest!) However, women are catching up. I believe a premier female cyclist can probably finish in the middle pack ahead of some lower end male tour cyclists.

Marathon is not a team sport. Road cycling is. And the TdF is not one kind of race, it's (at least) four.
Look at how much scorn is being heaped on racers who entered in order to race in the first four (flat) stages and then withdrew as soon as the climing started. If a team included a woman who had to quit early, neither she nor the team would ever live it down, and it would be a long time before a second woman got the nod.

I would be interested if someone could suggest the name of even one woman racer whom they seriously believe is capable of completing the TdF, even in last place, and the basis for that belief. Has any women's stage race ever included a climb like L'Alpe d'Huez?

I don't see this as an "equal opportunity" issue. Opportunities for women to race at the maximum level of which they are capable exist in great number. There's a big difference between opportunity and marketability.

There are sports -- even endurance sports -- where the differences between genders tend to even out. Ultra-marathon, where endurance matters more than peak power, or climbing, which has a lot to do with strategic and visualization skills as well as strength.

Finally, there's the question that was raised when Annika Sorenstam competed in anPGA event a few weeks ago. Even if the top woman can compete with most men and turn in a creditable performance, why would she choose to do so when instead she could be dominating in the women's tour? Certainly Sorenstam's notoriety for that attempt helped her personally in terms of name recognition and marketability (she got to do a KFC commercial with Jason Alexander, wow!), but again, golf is not a team sport, and she didn't have to prove anything to anyone in order to compete.

RichC

The exlusion of women works this way: Only TT1 and TT2 (the latter rarely) are eligible for inclusion in the TdF. In order to be on one of those teams, you must hold a professional men's racing license recognized by the UCI. Consequently women cannot qualify for teams that qualify for the TdF.

BTW, and this is one of the things that bugs me, there is no such thing as a difference between genders, there is a difference between sexes. In fact, gender is the difference between sexes.

If 79 women can climb Mount Everest, lots of women can climb L'Alpe d'Huez. Her time ,of course, will be much slower.

I have a feeling that the amount of attention given to female cycling events is in direct proportion to the amount of women who are interested in cycling.

While I think it would be nice if lotsa men were interested in watching women race; it would surely light a fire under the marketers if they found a real desire in women to be watching women race.

I just don't see a desire in my fellow women (sans this forum) to watch or compete in a bike race.

Women don't have time for the tour since they are too busy cooking and cleaning for the men. And don't forget downloading little ones. ;)

Damn Sam

It's a good thing you are married to an angle!

I'm curious to see how my daughter does in the marine corps marithon this year then I'll coment on her chances in a bucycle race.

Joe

Joe, good luck to your daughter.

And Sam, ever fascetious.:p (Probably why you're not in the Tour since you don't have wifey who does either of the first two eh?)