This is absurd. Next time you go grocery shopping, if you have multiple bags, carry everything with one arm. Same weight, same energy expenditure, should be just as efficient, right?

Or instead of doing eight pull ups, do eight one armed pull ups, four for each arm. No problem! Same thing, right?

Of course these are more extreme examples, but the same sort of thing applies to the clipless conversation here. If the left leg helps out the right leg, the whole thing is more efficient.

They aren't just extreme examples, they are inappropriate examples. The pullups, or a really heavy grocery load are beyond the capacity of one arm - I have to use two. However as Kommisar89 pointed out, at high cadence the legs don't actually work together - they take turns working the downstroke. In fact, in the grocery example, you're correct that it is the same amount of work to carry stuff with one arm as with two. Again, it's only if the load is beyond the capacity of one arm that it makes it more efficient to use two arms. If I have one heavy suitcase to carry some distance, I can alternate arms to make it tolerable, just like I alternate legs (a lot more frequently) in my pedalling effort.

I have no problem with using clipless. I unclip easily, don't fall over, and usually clip back in almost instantly.

That said, I don't use them anymore for commuting. There's no point. I can go just as fast (i check my speedo regularly) with or without. And I can wear any shoes I want, have my feet in any position I feel comfortable with at the moment and change position if I feel like it. The only downside is that it's SLIGHTLY harder to get moving from a complete stop. Not enough to care but it wouldn't be fair to not mention it. Would help in climbing steep hills but I don't have any of those.

We're really picking on this point you're trying to make, aren't we... ;)

The thing is, you say that it's the same amount of work whether you lift that leg or push it up with the other leg.

The problem is, any energy you spend pushing up that leg is not being used for forward motion anymore. It's lost -- it's gone. It's not serving any purpose towards locomotion.

I figure, there are muscles that make both pulling and pushing motions with our legs, so why not take advantage of them?

I have clipless pedals, and like them quite a bit. Of course I'm also on a recumbent trike, so don't have to unclip to stop.

I used to have a two-wheeler with toe clips, though, and didn't like them. The primary reason I didn't like them was due to the fact that at every stop, I'd have to flip the pedal up before I could use the clips.

I haven't seen anyone mention that, figured I'd toss that in before running away and avoiding the discussion of effectiveness. (my personal view -- it feels like I'm more efficient with the clipless pedals, that's enough for me. Not too concerned with the exact level of change)

Ahh but there's the rub - I gather from many of the posts that a lot of folks here never reach that point on their bikes. They are simply cruising along at a moderate pace. In that case having your feet attached to the pedals does't add much. On the other hand, I and I'm sure quite a few others often ride near or at my maximum capacity, at least for short distances and for that it does help. My typical cadence is 90-105 and I frequently go up to 120. No way I could do that on platforms.

But aside from all that, I think it is being implied in this thread that attaching your feet to the pedals is somehow a new fangled thing that the cycling industry has recently come up with to sell you things you don't need and several comparisons have been made to commuter bikes or BMX bike which by the nature of the their intended purpose use platform pedals. In fact, however, for road bikes attaching your feet firmly to the pedals has been the standard practice for decades. Long before Look introduced clipless systems in the 80's there were clips and straps with cleats on those same special expensive shoes that attached your feet even more firmly to the pedals and made it even more difficult to get in and out of. Clipless pedals were not introduced to replace bare platforms for casual riders but rather to improve clips and straps that had been used since the 30's at least.

Can we argue about the color of the sky next? Purple!

Why it's celeste of course, everybody knows that ;)

That's true, but it's exactly the same when you pull up - part of your effort goes towards lifting your leg (which doesn't aid locomotion), and part goes towards lifting the pedal (which does).
I agree. However most of the time the pulling muscles don't contribute as much as people think - they do part of the work of lifting the leg and none of the work of lifting the pedal.

The sky is every color BUT blue.

It merely reflects blue.

(okay, I know that technically it doesn't "reflect" but instead "scatters" blue wavelength light)

My friends & I solved this in the cafeteria in college.




:lol:

I am probably going tohave to get some. I realize my feet keep flying off the pedals when I am trying to increase my cadence. I am getting better at increasing my cadence by bending my feet....but that can only go so far.

WOW this thread is amazing, It even beats steel v's alum!!!
How could anyone question the superiority of clipless shoes?
If you stick on clippless shoes and pedal the same way as you do on your platforms you will not notice a difference. Think for a minute, clipless shoes do not have a built in turbo or supercharged battery system; you have to- well, use the pedals!

Glad you now admit that they are superior?

There's disadvantages to clipless for many types of riding (women complain about high heels, well try walking in them backwards) but peddling the bike is not one of them.

does anyone think that the people who say they do nothing hav'nt even tried them?

I've always said they offer a slight advantage, but it's usually grossly overstated. Under moderate exertion they offer zero advantage.

well forgive me I didnt get the idea that the argument through this post was whether clipless were better for a ride around the pond. for myself unless im riding around the park or with gf, I love them, so much easier to exit over clips

Well, this is the general cycling discussion forum, not road racing.

It's not "recreation and family" either. Lots of riders don't race but still strive for a workout on their rides. Besides, I think you're arguing against a false premise of clipless having a "massive" benefit. I have not read any posts from advocates suggesting that level of benefit.

It's not all about cruisers, sprung saddles and platforms for those of us that do not race.

Clipless don't give you a better work out. If anything they might let you go faster with less effort. Or at least less concentration on what your feet are doing. ;)
If I can spin my heavy rivendell fast enough in a 50/17 gear combo to do up near 30mph, you shouldn't have any problems on a lighter, faster, stripped down bike.
Clipless are about obtaining that last 10th of performance... that edge you need to win when every millisecond counts. You don't *need* them to get the same workout.

I like them on my road bike because they make me feel more connected and part of the sleek, precise machine between my legs (wow that sounded.... not so good), and on my commuter I like studded platforms for a multitude of reasons. But I can get the same workout on either bike.

:roflmao:

This. I love this shoe, which along with this pedal gives me the best of both worlds:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...e.cfm?SKU=2275

Some people would find it annoying to flip the pedal around, but I think it works great for transitioning from a no-traffic area to traffic. And I can wear those shoes anywhere.

Interesting discovering this discussion this afternoon. I just recently started riding again after a many year lapse. I had been using a cheapo mtb to putter around on, but now that I've gotten a larger, more comfortable bike that actually works, the longer I've been riding it, the more I've been missing my toe clips (that and my drops). I can't say I know _how_ the clips work, but I know that I ride smoother, and my confidence at higher rpms goes way up. This is the first bike I've seriously ridden that had platform pedals, and even after a bunch of years, I feel the difference, and miss being tied in.

I think that one genuine factor of being attached to the pedals is that simple fact of confidence. You can push harder when you need it, you can power up faster, and really push on the hills.

I'm not so convinced that the upstroke issue is a big issue. From my experience (consciously "pulling") I've never been convinced that there is much in that. However, I am convinced the extra rotation at both the bottom and the top of the stroke _do_ make a difference in my pedaling experience. With platforms, you aren't even getting a full half-turn of genuine power. It's more like 1/4 of a pedal stroke, if not less. Once your foot starts rounding out at the bottom, your power is way much lower than on the top 1/4 of the turn. In evidence, yesterday or Saturday, I was watching the tour, and watching how the bikes would "spurt" forward when the riders were sitting, and giving power strokes. That spurt is during that real power stroke--even with clipless pedals, they aren't getting the same power for the entire downstroke, but during only a small part of it. I am convinced, however, that when your feet are attached to the pedals, you are getting a longer useful stroke than with platforms. I would love to see genuine data from this stuff. It would most certainly get rid of some of the argument over this issue. ;-)

Lastly, for me, while clipless sound delightful (no scratches on your shoes from the clips, or squeezed feet from the straps, nor having to pause to clamp down the straps, or loosen them, and no trying to flip the pedals to get your feet in (actually, I was really good at just stepping right in without thinking about it, so that isn't such a big deal, IMO--once you learn, it's second nature). However, how easy is it to flip the clipless pedal and clip in? I bet it's no easier than planting your foot into the clips (you just don't have the strap to tighten). and who wants to change shoes when he gets to work? ;-) (I'm speaking for myself only)

Still.... gotta find me some of those Power Grips. :-)

-Jon

This is a good example of how people tend to exaggerate the benefits of clipless. You certainly can power through the top and bottom with platforms.
There is data. Here's an excellent summary of studies of pedalling efficiency from sports medicine experts like Coyle or Broker. If you look at Coyle's data (figure 1) you'll see that elite racers apply zero torque for a full 180 degrees of the pedal cycle. All the power is applied on the downstroke. All they do on the upstroke is unweight the pedal - they don't "pull up" - and the power applied through the top and bottom of the stroke (ie. right at 360/0 and 180) is minimal.

http://www.wholeathlete.com/document...artt_09-06.pdf

How was it measured? Did they use strain gauges in the pedals? Can they explain why I sometimes hop my rear wheel? Did you read where they talk about upward torque?

If there's a way to measure the actual tugging & mashing that a shoe cleat sees, I'll be glad to be a test rider. Wire me up for my commute, too. I just hope that I don't pull the cleats out of my shoes.

Here's the citation - when I get a chance I'll log onto the University server and see if it's available online.

3. Coyle EF, Feltner ME, Kautz SA, Hamilton
MT, Montain SJ, Baylor AM, Abraham
LD, and Petrek GW. Physiological
and biomechanical factors associated with
elite endurance cycling performance. Med
Sci Sports Exerc. Jan; 23(1):93-107, 1991.


Obviously you're not an elite racer :)

For me, it's been easier with clipless, even comparing to when I had my clips & straps set really loose. It's even easier with a decent platform and an easily-accessible clip system -- just put your foot on it and it'll clip in within a couple strokes.

I'm actually going to go buy another bike today, and I'll probably just ride it home with some plain platforms from the shop. I'll try not to throw my feet off the pedals on the way back. :D