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Found out some interesting stuff re: peds in bike lanes and direction of travel today

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Found out some interesting stuff re: peds in bike lanes and direction of travel today

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Old 09-22-08, 01:17 PM
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scorpio516
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Found out some interesting stuff re: peds in bike lanes and direction of travel today

So saturday I got into a minor crash - toasted front wheel when a lady right turned on red into me. I was in violation of a california vehicle code about safe crossing, no ticket, but I've got to get a new wheel, helmet, sunglasses, and headphones out of my pocket...

So I had to look up the code to see the words (I think its bogus cause the code is about peds, but I'm not going to push it unless her insurance sues me) and stumbled across some things that come up all the time here!

All of these only deal with California, so YMMV:

21200. (a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division...
Defining bikes as vehicles, I think that's pretty much a universal law in every state.

21650.1. A bicycle operated on a roadway, or the shoulder of a highway, shall be operated in the same direction as vehicles are required to be driven upon the roadway.
In CA, its the law to flow with other vehicles. I've read some threads that contend this point, so anyone who says other wise, in CA, is wrong.

21966. No pedestrian shall proceed along a bicycle path or lane where there is an adjacent adequate pedestrian facility.
Peds can't run in the bike lane in CA! Lots of peds do, even here, but we've got the law on our side if there is an accident (as long as there is a sidewalk - even if there weren't, I'd rather run on grass than concrete or asphalt!)

Hopefully some people read this and remember when the next argument come up
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Old 09-22-08, 01:22 PM
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You got right-hooked and it was your fault? How's that?
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Old 09-22-08, 01:22 PM
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You were in the wrong for one of two reasons:

1) you were on the crossing street traveling on the wrong side of the road.

2) you were going the same direction, on the correct side of the road, trying to pass her on the right.

Which is it?
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Old 09-22-08, 01:28 PM
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yeah you forgot to give a major detail....but from the sound of "turned on red into me" it sounds like you were for some stupid reason traveling against traffic. The woman should still get a ticket for hitting someone...she should be paying attention since you could've been a pedestrian and if that happened she would've been ticketed right away.
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Old 09-22-08, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Szczuldo View Post
yeah you forgot to give a major detail....but from the sound of "turned on red into me" it sounds like you were for some stupid reason traveling against traffic
He could have been running the red light. That is what it sounds like to me.
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Old 09-22-08, 01:53 PM
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Actually, the OP could have been traveling the correct direction. But if they got hit by somebody turning right on red, it was red for them, too. The bike should have been stationary.
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Old 09-22-08, 01:54 PM
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Holy simultaneous post, Batman!
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Old 09-22-08, 01:59 PM
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Unless the OP was travelling perpendicular to the driver's direction (the direction with the green light) and the driver was turning on the red to go in the same direction as the OP, pulling out in front of him (not a right hook). The OP did not provide any details, so we don't know which case it was.

But this all ignores the fact that the OP isn't sharing the incident, but rather other non-related laws he stumbled across while looking for laws pertaining to his incident. Did I get that part right?
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Old 09-22-08, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
But this all ignores the fact that the OP isn't sharing the incident, but rather other non-related laws he stumbled across while looking for laws pertaining to his incident. Did I get that part right?
Exactly!

But since everyone cares - I was riding against traffic on the sidewalk - I was technically in the wrong. I had the green light. I crossed at the crosswalk. She turned right on red without looking into me from a cross street. The violation was re:21950(b)
21950. (b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.
But then there is
(d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.
I'm pretty sure I'd be able to fight it if I cared to (or got a ticket), I wasn't a pedestrian.
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Old 09-22-08, 05:04 PM
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Don't know about Sacramento, but locally, I'm pretty sure it is legal to ride a bike on the sidewalk in the city of Los Angeles. Go figure.

So I think the motorist was in the wrong, especially if you had a signal allowing yu to be in the crosswalk. You were walking your bike across, as required by law, right?
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Old 09-22-08, 05:07 PM
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In Idaho, if you're on the sidewalk, you are a pedestrian. CA could be different.
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Old 09-22-08, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
Don't know about Sacramento, but locally, I'm pretty sure it is legal to ride a bike on the sidewalk in the city of Los Angeles. Go figure.
If you want to get deeper into this, it is legal in the city of Los Angeles, but the county law prohibits it. This gets even more complicated when you recall that most of the San Fernando Valley is actually part of the city, while other areas closer to downtown (such as Hollywood and Santa Monica) are their own cities.
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Old 09-22-08, 05:31 PM
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So she hit someone who was in a crosswalk because she didn't look, and it's your fault?

Regardless of whether you're on a bike or not, she still hit someone in a crosswalk when they had a safe crossing... what am I missing here?
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Old 09-22-08, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
If you want to get deeper into this, it is legal in the city of Los Angeles, but the county law prohibits it. This gets even more complicated when you recall that most of the San Fernando Valley is actually part of the city, while other areas closer to downtown (such as Hollywood and Santa Monica) are their own cities.
For that very reason, let's not go deeper
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Old 09-22-08, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio516 View Post
Exactly!

But since everyone cares - I was riding against traffic on the sidewalk - I was technically in the wrong.
Not just technically ... completely and utterly ... in the wrong. If that had happened in Manitoba, you would have been fined on the spot for being on the sidewalk.

Incidentally, this is a prime example of why it is more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk than it is to ride on the road, behaving like a vehicle of the road, and obeying all the rules of the road.
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Old 09-22-08, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by idcruiserman View Post
In Idaho, if you're on the sidewalk, you are a pedestrian.
Is that true even if you're taking your bike off of some sweet jumps?
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Old 09-23-08, 06:38 AM
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My son did the same thing. Rode on the sidewalk on a one way street against traffic. He was hit by a car coming from a side street. Messed the bike up and bruised his legs pretty badly too. The stupid **** didn't even call her insurance agent or even call to see if my son was alright.

Just have to add. The agent wouldn't talk to me because I was holding his feet to the fire but insisted on talking to my son (over 18). After an insulting offer my son was delighted when I advised him to hang up on the agent. They settled rather nicely in the end.
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Old 09-23-08, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by scorpio516 View Post
Exactly!

But since everyone cares - I was riding against traffic on the sidewalk - I was technically in the wrong. I had the green light. I crossed at the crosswalk. She turned right on red without looking into me from a cross street. The violation was re:21950(b)

But then there is


I'm pretty sure I'd be able to fight it if I cared to (or got a ticket), I wasn't a pedestrian.
Right...because you got hit when you were crossing at a CROSSWALK when the traffic parallel to you had a GREEN light and your still at fault. The law you sited makes no sense since you did not dart out in front of traffic nor were you in the way of traffic.

Now you are stuck buying a new bike out of your own pocket because of your insecurity of the laws, I feel there is something else your not telling us because if someone hit me while I was at a cross walk I would make sure I get a new bike...

You sir are the reason why drivers do what they want...you should have been forceful and gotten her ticketed and had her insurance pay for your bike and injuries
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Old 09-23-08, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Not just technically ... completely and utterly ... in the wrong. If that had happened in Manitoba, you would have been fined on the spot for being on the sidewalk.

Incidentally, this is a prime example of why it is more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk than it is to ride on the road, behaving like a vehicle of the road, and obeying all the rules of the road.
Agree totally. It should also be noted that cyclists behaving like responsible vehicle operators make it much easier for the majority of motorists to accept them as such. Likewise, those who behave aberrantly erode that tolerance. Not trying to rail on the OP, just saying in general...

btw, in Illinois (or maybe just Chicago) the rule is under 12 yrs. old is OK on the sidewalk; otherwise not.
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Old 09-23-08, 12:30 PM
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Hollywood is part of the City of Los Angeles. West Hollywood is its own city. North Hollywood is part of the City of Los Angeles.

The main problem with the OP's cited CA code is in his interpretation. What dictates an adequate pedestrian facility? Apparently he think that he can dictate what is adequate even when plenty of pedestrians disagree. This part of the code is left up to judgment which is not black and white.

He should probably deal with his own infractions rather than try to play Judge Mills Lane.
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Old 09-23-08, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Szczuldo View Post
The woman should still get a ticket for hitting someone...she should be paying attention since you could've been a pedestrian and if that happened she would've been ticketed right away.
So, because he "could have" been a pedestrian, she should have received a ticket? What if he had been in a car instead? If you want to have the same rights as vehicles, you're also going to have to abide by the same rules--just because you're on a bike doesn't mean you should be treated "above the law".

This is what drives me crazy about cyclists. We all want to ride on the road with other cars, and yet I see so many riders breaking the law (running lights, etc.), and wanting/expecting to get away with it because "I'm on a bike". If you want respect from other drivers, obey the law.
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Old 09-23-08, 03:48 PM
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In California, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk unless the local jurisdiction (city or county) specifically allows it. As Urbanknight describes, it can be very confusing from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, especially in dense urban areas like LA.

Regardless of the legality, it's generally more hazardous than you might think, as the OP's experience demonstrates.
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Old 09-23-08, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
In California, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk unless the local jurisdiction (city or county) specifically allows it. As Urbanknight describes, it can be very confusing from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, especially in dense urban areas like LA.

Regardless of the legality, it's generally more hazardous than you might think, as the OP's experience demonstrates.
Can you cite the California vehicle code section prohibiting the operation of a bicycle on sidewalks? I could never find one, and all the city ordinances are prohibitive in nature, not permissive (i.e. "bikes can't be ridden in business or residence districts unless the operator is a child" instead of "bikes are ok on sidewalks in the following areas")
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Old 09-23-08, 04:30 PM
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If you're on a sidewalk, how can you be riding "against traffic"? I don't know the law where you were, but where I live (Seattle), it's perfectly legal to ride a bike on a sidewalk or in a crosswalk as long as you are going slowly and give pedestrians the right-of-way...and obey the same laws and lights as the pedestrians.
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Old 09-23-08, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffB502 View Post
Can you cite the California vehicle code section prohibiting the operation of a bicycle on sidewalks? I could never find one, and all the city ordinances are prohibitive in nature, not permissive (i.e. "bikes can't be ridden in business or residence districts unless the operator is a child" instead of "bikes are ok on sidewalks in the following areas")
Well, you're right. I can't find it either. There's a section prohibiting parking or lying your bike on the sidewalk if it hinders folks, but nothing prohibiting riding on the sidewalk. I wonder if I had it backwards.
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