Buy American?
 

You know how folks are often so set in their ways when it comes to buying cars and trucks? Imports vs. domestic, and so on?

I've been kinda wondering about it, since one of the bikes I've been looking at happens to be a Masi, which is an Italian name, but the bike is actually made in Taiwan, if I understand correctly.

I get the impression that there are a fair number of US brands, BUT either a) most of their production is overseas (eg. Trek, Cannondale) or they are custom/semi-custom outfits built to a very high price (Serotta, Zinn, Lynskey, others).

Then there are all the European brand....but owing to the extremely high labor costs over there (more so than even here), they either cost a lot, or as is the case here, have a lot of production overseas in Asia, where labor costs are low.

How many of you feel more strongly inclined to buy or want to buy a truly American made bike than you would a car or truck? I personally don't care to buy American (GM, Ford, Chrysler) and would rather prefer a Honda, Toyota or Madza if that's what I ever did. I have had 3 Hyundais before (nearly entirely made in Korea), and my current drive is a 2001 Chevy Tracker, which happens to have been made by Suzuki.

I'm thinking about a Cannondale road bike (would be my first), but for some reason I would rather buy a Cannondale frame that's made here in the US rather than in China.

Likewise, another bike I'm also intrigued by is the Kona Kapu, which I understand sources Italian (Deccidai?) steel, although I'm not sure where it's actually produced.

Anyways, your thoughts?

Tom

my Serotta was less than $1700 and my Merlin was less than $2400 - both new

to save some money, buy used?

I have read too much about our trade deficit and how it will effect my children's future to not care about buying "American." However, you need to remember that a lot of "American" cars (GM, Ford, Chrysler) are made in Mexico while a lot of Japanese cars (well, at least Toyota and Subaru, I don't know about Honda) are made in America. That said, I am unaware of a reasonably price US made bike. I will say that I am a lot more comfortable buying a Taiwanese made frame/bike than a Chinese made one.

I buy as much American as I can.

Even on an "american" bike your talking what.........the frame? At one point you could choose to go to SRAM for american made components but since their overseas acquisitions, they too have factories in Europe and the Pacific rim. Bicycle manufacturing, like cars, are becoming an Asian business. This is not because of low labor costs, but rather because of a heavy investment in the technology of making good bikes. You may as well buy a bike you like.

Yeah, most of the debate's about the frame. Even though Shimano is nominally Japanese and of course has plants all over the Pacific Rim (and here too), I can't think of any Japanese bike brands....hmm?

I too would personally feel more comfortable with Taiwanese made frames than Chinese.

Even though I'm pretty much a bike newbie, I don't think building a frame is exactly rocket science (well maybe CF is). It's a fairly mature technology in many ways. What does make a big difference is things like metallurgy, quality control and assembly (espescially lugging and welding), all that kind of stuff. And it's sometimes hard to know just how skilled a welder in some noisy shop in China might compare to one in Taiwan, or anywhere else for that matter.

As noted, many Japanese brands are actually made here and many domestic brands are made elsewhere. I don't think that any one country has a clear-cut technical advantage over the other from a so-called 'cultural' standpoint. It's all about training the person doing the work....train them well, and you get a good bike; not so well and you might or might not get a good bike, but the better the training program the better your odds.

For sure a very highly subjective debate!

Tom

Bikes are an automated machine shop event. The technology advantage that Taiwan invested in made them the best mass produced frame makers in the business. As it turns out, many of the large mainland China bicycle plants are actually investments by the Taiwaneese. Although the two countries may not get along politically, so far that has not been a problem for businessmen.

I would not worry about the quality of any name brand Asian built bike. You might have to worry a little about frame and fork seconds that show up on Ebay every now and then. Most of the Trek's and other name brand bikes in your LBS are sourced out of one or the other of the Chinas.

There have been some articles posted in BF about where particular bikes come from. Most of them are old news by now as more and more production goes there.

Machak, my Marinoni Ciclo is a Canadian bicycle. If I buy a touring bicycle, which is next on my list, it will likely either be English (Thorn) or custom-made in Australia by an Australian friend ... I have no desire to buy American.

The first car I ever bought, a Plymouth Volare, was assembled in Canada. So you can't really go by the brands.

I actually do ride an American-made bike- the Worksman cruiser in my avatar. But even on it, a lot of the odds and ends are off-the-shelf items that you would expect to be made abroad. It's not like someone has a Raleigh or Schwinn factory in the US where they can just bring in raw steel and generate an entire bike on the spot.

2 of my Hondas were made in Ohio. My Nissan in Tennessee. One BMW in South (or North?) Carolina.
Forget about where it is 'supposedly' made. Just get what you want and get the best deal for yourself. That is what a FREE COUNTRY? is all about.
dc

So what defines an American built car?

Is a Ford that's assembled in Mexico an American car? How about a Honda that's assembled in Ohio? The management gurus tell us that where the profits go should be the determining factor so the Mixican Ford qualifies. I'm thinking that the workers wages that are spent (and re-spent) in their home area should be the determining factor. That would make the Honda an American car.

Using that logic 3 of the 7 bikes at our house have frames that were manufactured in the US.

My car is an Acura. If we get another vehicle it will be either a Honda Civic or a Ford Ranger(??) - if we want a small pickup to haul the bikes.

My main ride is a Litespeed Tuscany. Made right down the road in Chattanooga, TN. :thumb: :thumb:

With the internationalization of industry it is hard to know where anything is made anymore unless it is labeled.

My Swobo Dixon says Made in Taiwan but the SRAM hub is German made per the last info I have seen.

My Civia Hyland Rohloff has no country label but again the frame is Taiwanese so far as I know. The Rohloff hub is definitely German but most of the rest of the gear on it is Shimano. I have read that most Shimano parts are now made in Singapore. Final assembly on that one is supposed to be done in the U.S.

The frame on my 1990 Trek says "Made in USA" but the components are again Shimano. Old enough so presumably from Japan originally.

Even a lot of Campy parts are I am told are not made in Italy any more and apparently the same is true of many "Italian" frames.

Trying to "Buy American" has become more and more difficult for many products and basically impossible for some unfortunately.

Of course something made in Mexico is made in America, at least it was the last time I looked at a map, so is Canada.

Do you buy something that is made in america, even if it is dearer and lower quality ?

Nope. Things make in Mexico are Americano, and things make in Canada are Américain.

Our economy is more international than anything. As others say, even "domestic" barnd labels don't mean anything. I once worked for US Customs and was amazed at countries of origin, duty amounts, etc. For example, a shirt sold as "made in Amercia" was largely produced overseas. The shirt came here in semi-finished state - sleeves separate from the body and even collar, everything sewn together here with bottons added, and it qualified as American because the labor and other costs exceeded the value of the imported goods.

Making purchase decisions based on factors other than quality and price distorts what's important. I wonder if GM would started producing better cars years ago if a big share of the junk they sell went loyal American buyers. On the other hand, Ford got the message a few years ago and now produce very competitive world cars.

I started tbis thread in part because of my grandfather's rather strong political views about import vs. domestic. We've had to agree to disagree here. He's an old B-17 bomber pilot, flew the Berlin Airlift, then SAC, etc. Really hates the Germans and Japanese, or at least he'll tell anyone within earshot what he thinks.

An irony is that until recently his daily driver was a 2001 Chevy Tracker, which is made by.....Suzuki! When I asked him this he countered that yes, he knew it was made by Suzuki but "the profits stay in this country."

Additionally, he supports the auto bailout, etc (with much cursing and bad grace), I took the stance that if we wanted to compete we should have thought about building better cars back when we had a chance.....now its too late, and I think that GM and Chrysler will both sink no matter how much money we throw at them.

Okay, back to bicycles....

It seems that labor and commodity costs are the main driving factors in bike prices (which I do think are cruelly expensive in many cases), but we cyclists can be a mighty superstitious lot, and also mighty nostalgic as well. Even more so with European brands, I suspect. I confess that I've been thinking of getting a Masi fixed gear bike, which happens to be produced in Taiwan AFAIK, and have long wanted to get a Battaglin road bike, specifically the Stealth Rival (AL frame, yeah I was an old Stephen Roche fan back in the days), but I'm curious as to whether that particular model is actually made in Italy or not (the asking price seems pretty low compared to Italy's very high wage/labor costs).

I do think that it's pretty much boiling down to buying whatever floats your boat as long as you don't get something really cheap and crappy, it's all good.

Tom

No Tabor, Mexico and Canada are in North America, not America. Horse of a different color.
You is looking at your map, but you is missing a thing they call po lit e cal boundaries. And most political they are, too.
dc

You have a point but you're begging the question. The issue is which is more important - the country the profits ultimately go to or the country in which the production line workers spend their salaries?

I'm thinking that, unless you are a major stockholder, the second is far, far, far more significant.

Those foreign bike manufacturers are definitely making a profit or would not stay in business. Yes Trek, Cannondale, Specialized etc make a profit from the bikes they sell but so does the actual manufacturer, no matter where located. The ex employees who used to build bikes here though are the ones who are SOL.

The big problem as I see it is that manufacturing jobs are rapidly disappearing here and those historically have been some of the best jobs to have for the working stiff as far as wages are concerned. More and more jobs are in the "service" industries and they have historically paid poorly in comparison to manufacturing jobs. We cannot all survive long term by doing one another's laundry.

I have seen some articles indicating that if trends continue the younger generation is going to have a decrease in their standard of living, the first reversal in living standards in American history.

So far as I know you cannot even buy a domestically made TV any more just as a for instance.

You must not speak spanish. Most people that live in North and South America dislike when people from the USA refer to themselves as "American." This is so much the case that in Spanish there is no way to say "American." Instead you say Unitedstatesian.

PS - Look at a map, you may notice a country called U.S.A. wedged between Canada and Mexico.

PSS- This even extends as far as to China and Britain.

Right. It's pretty hard sometimes to find the true country of origin, and hardly anything is ENTIRELY American-made--most cars have parts sourced from all over.
Just for example, my Mazda was made in Ohio, my "Japanese" Isuzu pickup in Mexico, my wife's Honda in (I think) Alabama and my stepmother's Ford in Canada.

The Taiwanese do a fine job in carbon frame making. What's it REALLY matter what country it's made in? Humans making bikes, it's a beautiful thing.

Several great USA built bicycle frames. Components are a different story.