Upwind/Downwind Not Equal?
Was reading a book written by a flight navigator and he made the point that the speed gained by a tailwind does not equal the speed lost by a headwind. Wonder if that is true of cycling also?
When trying to figure average speed and cycling out and back against and with a wind factor what is the effect of loss? Seems this factor would be enhanced by the posture of a cyclist also where the wind at his/her back is meeting a more aerodynamic shape. Even in a low crouched posture there is the drag on a shape that is essentially concave. Any thoughts? |
It is true. Air resistance is a function of your velocity squared relative to standing air. Going into the wind increases your velocity relative to the air. A tailwind simply reduces your velocity relative to the air.
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You also have to remember that if you're measuring speed, then the key element is time, not distance. So don't think that if you went 15 mph on the way out and then 25 mph on the way back that your average would be 20. You spent less time at 25 than at 15 so your real "average" is the harmonic mean, not a simple average.
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^^^.... just as, for example, if you go up a 2-mile hill at 2 mph, and then back down it at 60 mph, your average speed is not 31 mph. The total time is an hour and two minutes to go 4 miles, which means a smidge under 4 mph.
People call wind an endless hill sometimes, jokingly, and basically, it is. Well, a kind of wiggly hill. |
The thing that gets me every time here on the Pacifica coast is that I can be riding along, not feeling any wind at my back on the way south, and don't even notice any trees or bushes swaying in the wind...but then when I turn around and start heading back north to go home, wham! there it is, slowing me up like two flat tires and a 100 lb. load, reducing what was a nice fast ride to a 12mph suffer-fest!
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when i try to figure out my average speed of cycling i usually look at the little computer on my handlebars. also, i don't really care, i just like riding my bicycle.
i would like to add that when discussing airpseed, i know the air speed of a swallow, especially a european swallow, depends on if it is laden or not. hope this helps. |
It must be true because when it gets windy here, 20mph and up, my times are slower. One other thing to think about is that even a side wind is tiring. I am constantly battling the side winds to keep myself upright and following my line. So, wind from the front and both sides is going to tire me and slow me down, while only the tail wind is going to speed me up.
Additionally, let's say I have a 20 mph tail wind. The advantage essentially ends after I reach 21 mph. Okay, not entirely true, but you get what I am saying. While if I have a 20 mph headwind, regardless of speed, that headwind is affecting me negatively. Further.....having a headwind on a hill is doubly tiring. Because we are not machines, but humans, at some point all that additional effort is going to add up and slow you down for the duration of the ride. If that 10% incline feels like a 20% incline because of a headwind, and you have gearing that essentially requires you to go no slower than 6 mph, then you will be forced to expend more energy than you typically do to keep from falling over. |
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo
(Post 11636545)
False.
Airspeed is the relationship between the aircraft and the air mass. <snip> |
Originally Posted by slowandsteady
(Post 11636839)
Additionally, let's say I have a 20 mph tail wind. The advantage essentially ends after I reach 21 mph. Okay, not entirely true, but you get what I am saying. While if I have a 20 mph headwind, regardless of speed, that headwind is affecting me negatively...
This is somewhat incorrect. Again, it is a function of your velocity squared relative to the air. If the air is moving (i.e. wind), then you must take that into account. A 20 mph headwind has you starting at 20 mph relative to the air while a 20 mph tailwind starts you at -20 mph. The negative airspeed will actually act as an assisting force up until you reach 0 mph, after which you will be back to 0 (relative to the air). However, it still helps at this point, since you are at a lower relative velocity.
Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
(Post 11636896)
How'd aircraft get pulled into this? We are talking about bikes, right? Bikes are propelled by a tire rolling against the ground, not by a propeller pushing air.
The actual equation is: Drag force = 0.5 * Adpv^2 A = Cross-sectional area d = drag coefficient p = density of air (perhaps the air mass ratio he was thinking of?) v = velocity relative to the air |
Originally Posted by Sculptor7
(Post 11635750)
Was reading a book written by a flight navigator and he made the point that the speed gained by a tailwind does not equal the speed lost by a headwind.
Wonder if that is true of cycling also? Hills work the same way, by the way -- yes, you store energy as you go up the hill, but burn it up really fast as you go fast downhill, and when you average equal distances worth of slow speeds plus high speeds -- the average is closer to slow than high. Want to get places quickly? Move somewhere flat without wind. |
I think there is an echo in here...
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim
(Post 11636404)
The thing that gets me every time here on the Pacifica coast is that I can be riding along, not feeling any wind at my back on the way south, and don't even notice any trees or bushes swaying in the wind...but then when I turn around and start heading back north to go home, wham! there it is, slowing me up like two flat tires and a 100 lb. load, reducing what was a nice fast ride to a 12mph suffer-fest!
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air speed like going against the tide , the speed thru the air or water may be X,
but physically you can be going nowhere or backwards. on a bike you may just fall over or get off and walk, when the headwind is too strong to proceed thru. friends tell tales of crawling on hands and knees to get to the car, on the southern Irish Coast , in winter storms. |
Originally Posted by dougmc
(Post 11637477)
...Hills work the same way, by the way -- yes, you store energy as you go up the hill, but burn it up really fast as you go fast downhill, and when you average equal distances worth of slow speeds plus high speeds -- the average is closer to slow than high...
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
(Post 11637891)
air speed like going against the tide , the speed thru the air or water may be X,
but physically you can be going nowhere or backwards. on a bike you may just fall over or get off and walk, when the headwind is too strong to proceed thru. friends tell tales of crawling on hands and knees to get to the car, on the southern Irish Coast , in winter storms. |
Originally Posted by itsthewoo
(Post 11637925)
Er, hills don't work the same way. Assuming ideal and symmetrical conditions, the work spent going up a hill will be regained on the way down. That's conservation of energy.
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FWIW, I remember a story maybe 20 years ago (possibly in Bicycling back when it used to be a real magazine) that analyzed this. Don't recall all the details, but they looked at riding positions, bike speed relative to wind speed and other factors, and there was a graph showing that only winds within 45 degrees of the bike's direction of travel actually aided the cyclist. There was a small zone where there was no effect, but basically about 270 degrees counted as a headwind.
It didn't make complete sense to me then, and I'm not sure it does now. But that's what they claimed. |
Originally Posted by Velo Dog
(Post 11639222)
FWIW, I remember a story maybe 20 years ago (possibly in Bicycling back when it used to be a real magazine) that analyzed this. Don't recall all the details, but they looked at riding positions, bike speed relative to wind speed and other factors, and there was a graph showing that only winds within 45 degrees of the bike's direction of travel actually aided the cyclist. There was a small zone where there was no effect, but basically about 270 degrees counted as a headwind.
It didn't make complete sense to me then, and I'm not sure it does now. But that's what they claimed. Read my post. That is exactly what I said and explained why that is the case. |
Originally Posted by itsthewoo
(Post 11637457)
.
This is somewhat incorrect. Again, it is a function of your velocity squared relative to the air. If the air is moving (i.e. wind), then you must take that into account. A 20 mph headwind has you starting at 20 mph relative to the air while a 20 mph tailwind starts you at -20 mph. The negative airspeed will actually act as an assisting force up until you reach 0 mph, after which you will be back to 0 (relative to the air). However, it still helps at this point, since you are at a lower relative velocity. r The advantage essentially ends after I reach 21 mph. Okay, not entirely true, but you get what I am saying. |
Originally Posted by Velo Dog
(Post 11639222)
FWIW, I remember a story maybe 20 years ago (possibly in Bicycling back when it used to be a real magazine) that analyzed this. Don't recall all the details, but they looked at riding positions, bike speed relative to wind speed and other factors, and there was a graph showing that only winds within 45 degrees of the bike's direction of travel actually aided the cyclist. There was a small zone where there was no effect, but basically about 270 degrees counted as a headwind.
It didn't make complete sense to me then, and I'm not sure it does now. But that's what they claimed. Wind is wiggly and shifty. Real hills stand still. |
The answer is perfectly simple. There is no such thing as a tailwind.
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Originally Posted by chasm54
(Post 11639735)
The answer is perfectly simple. There is no such thing as a tailwind.
:) |
Originally Posted by Velo Dog
(Post 11639222)
but basically about 270 degrees counted as a headwind.
It didn't make complete sense to me then, and I'm not sure it does now. But that's what they claimed. When driving a car with a strong crosswind, I notice the steering wheel needs to be turned into the wind. That would add tire drag, it's probably the same kind of thing going on. Plus it is more work. |
Originally Posted by sdold
(Post 11639863)
...When driving a car with a strong crosswind, I notice the steering wheel needs to be turned into the wind. That would add tire drag, it's probably the same kind of thing going on...
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Originally Posted by itsthewoo
(Post 11640010)
I'm pretty sure that the tires are actually still pointed straight.
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