Input needed on a designing Velomobile
01-27-09, 09:43 AM
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Input needed on a designing Velomobile
I'm an Industrial Design student working on my grad. project (a velomobile) and was hoping to get some input. I'm currently looking to do something similar to the twike or go-one3. Mainly a hybrid-electric/human powered vehicle that will fit in the current infrastructure and possibly replace a car. I'm open to all opinions so....
My question is what would you want/expect in this vehicle? (please be realistic)
Thanks,
Joe
My question is what would you want/expect in this vehicle? (please be realistic)
Thanks,
Joe
01-27-09, 10:43 AM
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1. Adequate performance to be able to keep up with traffic well enough to feel reasonably safe.
2. Weather protection. Neither too warm in summer nor too cold in winter.
3. Enough range to make it to work and back on a single charge.
4. Maybe 2 cubic feet of load carrying capacity for groceries or maybe a laptop.
5. Theft/vandalism protection.
2. Weather protection. Neither too warm in summer nor too cold in winter.
3. Enough range to make it to work and back on a single charge.
4. Maybe 2 cubic feet of load carrying capacity for groceries or maybe a laptop.
5. Theft/vandalism protection.
01-27-09, 11:08 AM
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Definitely carrying capacity. If it can only carry the driver, then it is only a recreational toy.
01-27-09, 11:11 AM
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It doesn't have to be bombproof but It should be able to handle a fender bender.
01-27-09, 11:19 AM
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3 wheels.
minimal 24 gears (either internal or external).
solar panel(s) for on-the-go re-charging.
alu or carbon fiber frame to save some weight.
affordabilty.
minimal 24 gears (either internal or external).
solar panel(s) for on-the-go re-charging.
alu or carbon fiber frame to save some weight.
affordabilty.
01-27-09, 12:53 PM
#6
Uber Goober
To be honest, I don't think there's a good answer; that's why they don't exist. If you incorporate several of the ideas above, you're going to have an electric car that weighs 2,000 lbs, not a velomobile. Making it something that can be easily pedaled means you have to leave off most of those other features.
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01-27-09, 01:06 PM
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To be honest, I don't think there's a good answer; that's why they don't exist. If you incorporate several of the ideas above, you're going to have an electric car that weighs 2,000 lbs, not a velomobile. Making it something that can be easily pedaled means you have to leave off most of those other features.
Geeze - I'm supposed to be the Retro Grouch.
01-27-09, 01:47 PM
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WOW! I really wasn't expecting this many replies so quickly. I appreciate any and all constructive criticism on this so please keep it coming.
Currently I'm looking at more pedal based then car or motorcycle. The electric would be assist for higher speeds or steep hills. Also, I decided a while ago to go with the tadpole style (any objections please let me know).
If you could give me a hint at what "reasonable pricing" would be i would greatly appreciate it. I'm trying to balance out the needs vs. wants of this this project. The electric assist is not essential and could be cut if cost prohibits but at the same time it would like to incorporate as many "wants" into this thing as possible
Currently I'm looking at more pedal based then car or motorcycle. The electric would be assist for higher speeds or steep hills. Also, I decided a while ago to go with the tadpole style (any objections please let me know).
If you could give me a hint at what "reasonable pricing" would be i would greatly appreciate it. I'm trying to balance out the needs vs. wants of this this project. The electric assist is not essential and could be cut if cost prohibits but at the same time it would like to incorporate as many "wants" into this thing as possible
01-27-09, 01:48 PM
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Set a maximum weight target. If it's too heavy, it's not going to be used. 35-40 pounds empty is as heavy as a human powered vehicle should be.
There's a guy here (Tustin CA) who has a three-wheeled recumbent he rides regularly. He's the one who'd have valuable input.
There's a guy here (Tustin CA) who has a three-wheeled recumbent he rides regularly. He's the one who'd have valuable input.
01-27-09, 06:10 PM
#10
Uber Goober
Some other thoughts...you can buy a car, and run it thousands and thousands of miles without doing anything but putting gas in it. That's the kind of reliability you need on your velomobile- otherwise, half your potential market won't buy it. That means some sort of flat-proof or very nearly flat-proof tire. That means tires you don't have to air up everyday. (That also means inventing something new, because the airless tires currently out there tend to be lacking.)
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
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"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
01-28-09, 08:15 AM
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Some other thoughts...you can buy a car, and run it thousands and thousands of miles without doing anything but putting gas in it. That's the kind of reliability you need on your velomobile- otherwise, half your potential market won't buy it. That means some sort of flat-proof or very nearly flat-proof tire. That means tires you don't have to air up everyday. (That also means inventing something new, because the airless tires currently out there tend to be lacking.)
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
So what would it take to electify and enclose a Vespa scooter, with the unibody realized in composite? Scooters offer a reliable format for road tires ...
01-28-09, 10:29 AM
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Options. Design it with an inline electric motor like Ecospeed so it is ready for it but can be bought without it. Crash panels so that parts of the fairing can be easily replaced when damaged and not the whole fairing. The criticism of electric drive could be made for any electric assist bicycle and is not really valid. I use my electric when I am towing a 300 lb loaded trailer or need to go fast and far. I am currently installing electric on a bike for a nurse at our hospital so he doesn't get to work really sweaty (big hill). The battery storage area should be large enough for someone to add extra batteries and the box shouldn't be made to fit only one size of battery. As battery technology improves the owner could upgrade.
Cars seem to be reliable at first but if you read the owners manuals, you would fill up your tires regularly, it is just with a car you don't need the performance, you just need a heavier foot. An internal geared hub option would be good like the Rolhoff. Offer it in two or three wheel version. When it comes to lights, they are improving all the time. So some places to mount lights so they can be upgraded later.
Cars seem to be reliable at first but if you read the owners manuals, you would fill up your tires regularly, it is just with a car you don't need the performance, you just need a heavier foot. An internal geared hub option would be good like the Rolhoff. Offer it in two or three wheel version. When it comes to lights, they are improving all the time. So some places to mount lights so they can be upgraded later.
01-29-09, 01:59 PM
#13
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I think you need electric assist so you don't need to meet "motorized vehicles" laws. An assisted bike is a bike. A bike that works without assist is a motorcycle. Laws are different for the two - where you can ride, licensing, etc.
If you keep it a bike, then you need fairings for some semblence of weather proofing (good for solar stuff too), way to keep dry when it's raining or the roads are wet (i.e. fairing type thing), narrow enough to be a bike (ride on road shoulders when necessary).
I think an assisted recumbent, trike or bike, would be a possibility. Some ideas include:
- disc brakes for weather and rim-dent proofing
- suspension or wider tires for durabilty/comfort
- triple with huge gears for an optimistic 50-70 mph top (assisted) speed
- fairing with solar panels for all day charging
- plug in battery
- regenerative circuitry to use motor as generator for braking and long descents
I figure the battery can be one of those super nice Optimas. Cost a bundle but weigh 12-15 lbs for a typical battery, not 50 or more. You'd probably need two or more for a truly usable vehicle. Or do the Tesla thing and use a lot of light laptop batteries (the Tesla uses a few thousand of them).
I'd do LED turn signals, brake lights, and headlight just for safety sake. LED would require very little battery power.
The key will be to get the bike up hills at a reasonable speed. I don't know what it'll take to do 30 up a 7 or 8% grade, but that's important to keep up avg speed and to keep from pissing off traffic too much.
Another/additional possibility - someone experimented with a fixed gear derailleur bike that would use a modified bottom bracket axle as a crankshaft. The crankshaft drove a piston that compressed air in the three main tubes of a normal bike. A lever would allow the pressure to be reversed, i.e. drive the piston. This would assist the rider's pedaling. He's an engineer, not a bike racer, and he did something like a 50 minute 25 mile time trial on an otherwise normal bike (this was in the 70s I think, and I think he did the ride on some primitive steel bike with thick tubing). This counts as "hydraulic" energy, kind of what UPS is experimenting with on some trucks. Battery power gets used quickly and recharges slowly; a mechanical energy storage system would be much more usable. This would be one of them.
To use derailleurs with a fixed gear the engineer simply installed one derailleur on each side of the (fixed) freewheel. It worked fine, but it looked odd to see one derailleur pointing upside down above the dropout.
cdr
If you keep it a bike, then you need fairings for some semblence of weather proofing (good for solar stuff too), way to keep dry when it's raining or the roads are wet (i.e. fairing type thing), narrow enough to be a bike (ride on road shoulders when necessary).
I think an assisted recumbent, trike or bike, would be a possibility. Some ideas include:
- disc brakes for weather and rim-dent proofing
- suspension or wider tires for durabilty/comfort
- triple with huge gears for an optimistic 50-70 mph top (assisted) speed
- fairing with solar panels for all day charging
- plug in battery
- regenerative circuitry to use motor as generator for braking and long descents
I figure the battery can be one of those super nice Optimas. Cost a bundle but weigh 12-15 lbs for a typical battery, not 50 or more. You'd probably need two or more for a truly usable vehicle. Or do the Tesla thing and use a lot of light laptop batteries (the Tesla uses a few thousand of them).
I'd do LED turn signals, brake lights, and headlight just for safety sake. LED would require very little battery power.
The key will be to get the bike up hills at a reasonable speed. I don't know what it'll take to do 30 up a 7 or 8% grade, but that's important to keep up avg speed and to keep from pissing off traffic too much.
Another/additional possibility - someone experimented with a fixed gear derailleur bike that would use a modified bottom bracket axle as a crankshaft. The crankshaft drove a piston that compressed air in the three main tubes of a normal bike. A lever would allow the pressure to be reversed, i.e. drive the piston. This would assist the rider's pedaling. He's an engineer, not a bike racer, and he did something like a 50 minute 25 mile time trial on an otherwise normal bike (this was in the 70s I think, and I think he did the ride on some primitive steel bike with thick tubing). This counts as "hydraulic" energy, kind of what UPS is experimenting with on some trucks. Battery power gets used quickly and recharges slowly; a mechanical energy storage system would be much more usable. This would be one of them.
To use derailleurs with a fixed gear the engineer simply installed one derailleur on each side of the (fixed) freewheel. It worked fine, but it looked odd to see one derailleur pointing upside down above the dropout.
cdr
01-29-09, 04:08 PM
#14
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I looked at the Go-One-3 and it is outrageously expensive. Nobody is going to purchase a vehicle for thousands of dollars that can be shoved into the back of a pickup truck in mere seconds. I found a link below for a simple cruiser type pedal car.
https://www.americanspeedster.com/side-kick.htm
It's a simple design that could be made for a single rider and made more efficient and lighter. With a tube frame you could easily add fabric type element protection similar to a Jeep soft top. The problem then with that is going into winds....
https://www.americanspeedster.com/side-kick.htm
It's a simple design that could be made for a single rider and made more efficient and lighter. With a tube frame you could easily add fabric type element protection similar to a Jeep soft top. The problem then with that is going into winds....
01-29-09, 05:43 PM
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What is it with the students constantly coming here for one survey or another... have you folks ever heard of a library? Where you do research?
01-29-09, 06:18 PM
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trois, mon frère
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These questions are a hundred times better than the typical "should I upgrade?" "what color?" "I don't like pink" "I don't like blue either" threads.
01-29-09, 06:20 PM
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Cyclops -
You might want to take a look at BROL also. Lots of Velomobile-type folks over there......
You might want to take a look at BROL also. Lots of Velomobile-type folks over there......
01-29-09, 11:46 PM
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I would like to thank everyone for all your input. This has truly helped give me a definitive set of design parameters.
I can not speak for others but I came to this forum hoping to see what the bicycle community would want in a velomobile. I am very fortunate that enough people were willing to share their opinions so quickly. I also expect the bicycle community to be my toughest critics, this is my second reason for coming here. Libraries just cannot offer these things. Finally, its about time I joined a bike forum somewhere. I ride everyday for commuting no matter the conditions. This is also my main reason for wanting to design a velomobile, the elements make it interesting but some days its just too much.
I've contacted Stephen Mosca at go-one and hopefully I'll get to actually see one of these things in person. Its only about an hour or so drive from here (Philadelphia to Maywood, NJ).
Hydraulic air energy Pneumatic is beyond me but I'll look into it anyhow
Thank you for the BROL link. Hopefully I can find some local "bent riders"
I've contacted Stephen Mosca at go-one and hopefully I'll get to actually see one of these things in person. Its only about an hour or so drive from here (Philadelphia to Maywood, NJ).
Thank you for the BROL link. Hopefully I can find some local "bent riders"
Last edited by cyclops231; 01-30-09 at 09:14 AM. Reason: correction in text
01-30-09, 08:45 AM
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01-30-09, 02:57 PM
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A flywheel that could be spun up would be kinda cool. Might work better than just a battery. Just musing.
01-31-09, 09:20 AM
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flywheels are efficient kinetic storage devices, but there's a few problems. They are heavy and they make really good gyroscopes, which might cause issues with handling.
01-31-09, 10:20 AM
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Some other thoughts...you can buy a car, and run it thousands and thousands of miles without doing anything but putting gas in it. That's the kind of reliability you need on your velomobile- otherwise, half your potential market won't buy it. That means some sort of flat-proof or very nearly flat-proof tire. That means tires you don't have to air up everyday. (That also means inventing something new, because the airless tires currently out there tend to be lacking.)
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
For similar reasoning, you need an automatic transmission. People that use multi-geared bikes all the time think it's the easiest thing in the world to deal with, just like people that drive standard transmissions in cars think that's pretty simple. But there again, half your potential buyers are going to reject anything that requires shifting two different sets of gears, no matter how utterly simple it is.
I have mixed feelings on the electric assist. I think the theory is that Mr. Ace Cyclist rides it, pumps in his 200 watts, the electric assist throws in another 100 or 200, and you have some good performance. The problem is that there are two different theories to riding a bike. Theory #1, it's an exercise endeavor, you throw some muscle into it, breathe hard, get sweaty and tired, but go fast. That's a lot of the people on BikeForums. Theory #2, you ride a bike because you're too lazy to walk, so you ride it by putting out the least little amount of energy, which means riding at 6-8 mph on the sidewalk. The problem I see is that you want Group #1 to use electric assist, only they don't need it or want it. So Group #2 is who's going to use it, and they're going to throw in their 25 watts and depend on the electric to do the rest. So you might as well just go ahead and design a non-electric version and a non-pedal version (IE, electric motorcycle).
Lessee...what else? Full coverings for weather that are completely removable when it's nice, and quickly removeable and easily replaceable. Either that or an AC system, which seems unlikely. Windshield wipers or some way of seeing when it's raining. Lights on front, on back, on the sides. It should be up high, not like you're laying on the ground. If if has cargo room, you need to be able to load that cargo room without it falling over.
This speed differential puts the cyclist at risk, particularly on busy roads with little or no shoulder.
A solution to this would be an ebike built for speed.
Most of the ebikes I've read about here are hybrids or mtbs with 300-500 watt motors. They will comfortably cruise along at 20 mph or so, which still makes you a slow moving target to cagers.
What I would like to build is a reasonably quick and light roadie with big gears and about 300 watts of rear hub power. I would think that such a bike with a decent rider should have a cruising speed on level ground somewhere around 35-40 mph with the rider putting in his 150-200 watts while laying down on his aerobars.
He would still have to get out of the way on the up hill sections or for faster traffic, for normal flat cruising he might actually be able to hang with traffic.
Some lightweight fairing might work with such a bike, but, I doubt it. I think the weight gain/susceptibility to cross winds would negate the small aero gains. Bottom line is, you're just not going fast enough to get big aero paybacks, IMO.
Solar? Nahhh. Expensive. Added weight. Added cost. And what do you gain? A few watts of recharge. I guess it might payoff if you commuted 30 miles and parked it in the desert for 3 days, then rode home. Otherwise, you aren't getting enough benefit.
Batteries would pretty much have to be big $$$$$$ lithiums. This is the only way I see getting decent power and range while keeping the weight down.
I guess the question is will such a bike hold up to 40 mph all the time? You would certainly need to watch for potholes. I think any sort of suspension would cost to much weightwise. Probably want to just go with a rugged frame, probably steel and atleast a 28, maybe 32 size tire.
02-01-12, 02:38 PM
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Motor-pedal hybrid design
here are some things I have discovered about design of the velomobile
https://commutercycling.blogspot.com/...id-design.html
https://commutercycling.blogspot.com/...id-design.html
02-01-12, 04:58 PM
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Personally, what keeps me out of velomobiles is that they are so expensive and I live where there are hills. My percieved benefit is that they are supposed to be more aerodynamic and hence faster. I'd say the most important things are, make it so I can attach it to an existing trike, make it as light and as inexpensive as possible. Since it will be light, look at making it repairable as well. K.I.S.S.
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