yeah, it may be the last saddle I ever buy, but that doesn't change the fact that I had to slaughter an animal who very much enjoyed having that saddle as part of it's skin.

enough with the "killing animals is so much easier than not killing animals" argument. vegans understand it. we know that by choosing not to kill animals, we are making life a little bit harder for ourselves while we live in this society. If doing the easy thing was always assumed to be the correct way, we'd still be burning coal without filters and cars would not only not have seat belts, but they'd still be getting 10 mpg and burning leaded fuel. It's easy to go along with what the dominant voices in society tell you. its harder to do what you think is right.

ever stop to think that if we put as much money and effort into finding an alternative as we do into producing leather,we might have something much better by now?

tim

ha HA sf. fU.

to be honest, riding my bike instead is probably more due to me thinking "hey! i like riding my bike!" but i do tend to avoid rides in leathered cars and sitting on leather couches.

having said that, i just realised that my the saddle on my latest fixie might indeed be leather. crap. too bad i'm too po' to get another one.

sf, you made me realise i make a really bad vegan. i'ma go drown myself in mincemeat pie now.

only if it looked cool

How about a wallet?

www.weirdnj.com

look under the section Local Heros & Villians - Wallet Man

To play devil's advocate (after all, I do have retractable horns), in the strictest sense, aren't plastic based saddles non-vegan? I mean, they are made from a petroleum base product (fossil fuel) which comes from decomposing plants and animals.

My point exactly! Where do you draw the line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you know everything, too many options too many possibilities,

Breathing?

but our use of fossil fuels does not affect those dead animals whose fossils have been turned to crude. i'm vegetarian, not vegan, but doesn't that fact have something to do with it?

[edit: nevermind. this won't work because you could apply it back to the original, used leather saddle. ]

..

Meatetarians unite!

oil is made from animals (and plants) that died on their own. being vegan, from an ethical stance, involves not using any animal parts that were taken without consent. non-human animals can't give consent b/c we can't communicate well enough with them to make sure that is what they intend, so vegans don't use products taken from non-human animals. (Humans, by the way, can give consent. so cannibalism can be vegan if the person being killed is ok with it.)
I know certain vegans don't agree with this. It is just my point of view and that of the books that I have read.

tim

OK, I didn;t mean for this to get out of hand here. How about we just stop here. I was simply trying to see people's thoughts on this. TimArchy, obviously, you have a valid point, vegan=no animal products- including bike parts. However, there are obviously people who look at this from a different perspective (ink1373) and that's what I wanted to hear, people's perspectives on the pro's and con's of brooks saddle from a vegan angle. I also know that people's personal interpretations of vegansim vary (the how far do you take it argument) and so I was hoping for a level discourse on the matter.

But, i didn't want people to start flaming and before this goes any farther, let's just call it here. I got some perspective on the matter and I'm satisfied.

Thanks for all your comments and happy riding!

ok...I just re-read that and it didn't say what I wanted it to.

Humans played no part in killing the animals that make up oil, so oil is vegan. (according to a purely ethical stance)

tim

it's a personal choice, obviously. no reason to get all flabbergasted.

Some people have developed a certain amount of compassion and concern for animals that leads them to behave accordingly; most have not.

[retracting statements in the hopes that this thread will die]...

this was fun. we'll have to do it again sometime.

tim

haha.

so, are there any vegan leather conditioning creams out there? my brooks is getting dry.

i was kidding, based on the fiasco!

and

when i said "My point exactly" i was refering to the fact that this is all based on personal choice!

This is exactly, i mean exactly, like the straight edge post!

I like fixed gear bikes and this is foo speak!

Serious question: what about honey? I was under the impression Vegan's don't eat this. But, it's not an animal part and you could certainly get some honey from a hive without ever touching a bee.

Now that's a new one! :eek:

One could certainly argue that almost every modern material causes harm to animals (and humans) during production - steel, rubber, even cotton when we are talking mass production.

And BTW to any vegan on the thread: my questions are mostly just thought exercises, not intended to put down your lifestyle or insult it. To each their own I say.

Not attacking your ethics. You ride a bike. I ride a bike. Just curious.
But doesn't the use of petrolium based synthetics, thru drilling, transporting, refining, and polymerizing kill just as many if not more organisms than agriculture? i.e. Leather = directly killing cows. Plastic = oil spills, contaminated land, polluted air/water, all of which indirectly kills a lot of animals, plants, lichens, fungi (some fungi are classified as animals, just to warn you) etc. on a very big scale. It may be a lesser of evils thing, but I'm suprised that supporting oil use is the lesser evil. I'd think pushing for more humane/enviromentally friendly agriculture practices would be a more realistic goal compaired to using 100% synthetic product.
But like I said, nothing personal. Do what you do.

I'm not a vegan, but my guess would be that honey is like milk- your taking away the food of a calf, or in this case larva. But bee's aren't 'animals', so I dunno. Hey, is silk strict vegan friendly?

Pleather, as usually found on a Members Only jacket.

PERSONAL CHOICE.

as a vegan myself, who sometimes makes allowances for items found at thrift stores, etc., i was pleased a few years back when overhearing a local activist (himself vegan) telling a group of animal rights activists (his friends, i believe) that they had their heads too far up the animal's asses to see anything else that is going on in the world.

i believe he was referring to the zapatista uprising at the time, but really, couldn't it apply here to the discussion of fossil fuels, etc.?

for me it comes down to seriously weighing the issues, doing what i think is right based on what i think i know, and trying. that involves a lot of failing, regret, etc., but at least i'm making an effort.

my guess is that most of us are doing that or we wouldn't be on this board.

Bees, and all insects for that matter, are animals... Do you mean mammals?

So, what do you eat? Air? Every plant and animal in the world on land and sea will cast a shadow. I am honestly curious what you mean by this.

Now for the smart a$$ question. How is killing a plant any less offensive than killing an animal? They are no less alive than an animal and are even more defenseless.