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Hand signals: why are people mess 'em up?

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Hand signals: why are people mess 'em up?

Old 07-28-12, 12:32 PM
  #126  
cranky old dude
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Exceptions do not invalidate the rules, so to answer your question more directly, if you cannot give legal turn indications, you should exit the road immediately and not operate your old jalopy on public roads until you've repaired-- preferably replaced-- the poorly conceived and more poorly executed Lucas electrical system or properly switched the driver's controls to the left side of the vehicle.

My other advice would be to buy a proper, vintage, German sports car.
I'm confident you're jesting, but you do see my point.

Logic and practicality created the law(s) and logic and practicality will alter the law(s) as necessary. Any cyclist who is safety minded enough to be using hand signals most likely has enough common sense to ensure that his or her intentions are understood and enough awareness to realize when they aren't.

A little footnote, Three MG's over the last 40 years (a '72 tourer, '70 GT, and a '59 Coupe) and no electrical problems from Lucas The Prince of Darkness yet. It just took a bit of preventive maintainance and upkeep.

Last edited by cranky old dude; 07-28-12 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 07-28-12, 10:00 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
You're not understanding what I've been saying.

It doesn't matter what the law provides for a bicyclist to signal, but rather what licensed drivers are "expected to know, recognize, and employ when necessary" in order to get a license. I don't believe there is a single state that does not make standard hand signals part of the motor vehicle licensing requirement.

Similarly, few, if any, motorists are trained at all on laws that govern bicycle operation on the roads aside from a cursory "share the road" statement as a prereq to licensing.

So, if you're expecting to communicate your intentions as clearly as possible, why would you ignore what 99.9% of all road users are "expected to know, recognize, and employ"?

The answers to that question given here, that "right-hand right" indicating is more intuitive, less awkward, unambiguous, and more sensible, while having an appealing, child-like simplicity, just don't stand up to critical consideration unless one takes the position that 100 years (or thereabouts) of motorway user tradition and practice matters less than what a few, uninformed cyclists think.

I'm sorry, but while I love cycling and have done it for about 35 years, I fail to see any need or compelling reason to adopt a different right-hand turn signal that contravenes the American roadway standard.
All of the state laws that I have seen on using the right handed right turn signal allow for use of the raised left hand. That's what the "notwithstanding the foregoing provisions" statement means. It is up to the desecration of the rider. The meaning of a right hand right turn signal is very clear when used out in the world and causes no confusion that I've ever experienced. People understand what it means. You, in your original post, seemed to understand what the other cyclists were trying to communicate. I've used it in 42 of the 50 states and never had anyone seem to misunderstand its meaning...okay one guy. Another cyclist once said to me that "the right hand signal don't mean s**t!" But first he knew what it meant and then he proceeded to turn the wrong way down a one-way street. He was an idiot.

My point of quoting from the Uniform Vehicle Code is that it is what is used for setting laws and road regulations in the US. If it says that right hand right turn signal is okay to use, then there is no problem using it. That's what 'Uniform' means
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Old 07-28-12, 10:21 PM
  #128  
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This issue I have with the raised left-arm, right turn signal is that most people I see who perform the signal in this manner don't fully bend their elbows and point their left hands towards the sky, which often appears as though they are scratching their left ear. If the signal is not exaggerated, it's not effective.

As a driver of a motor vehicle, I would sooner recognize a signal whereby someone fully extends their right arm to point in the direction he or she wants to turn. It's less ambiguous than someone who doesn't signal properly because he or she doesn't realize that one needs to fully make the signal.

Is the OP suggesting that drivers are so simple minded, they can't interpret a signal of a bicyclist pointing to the right? Good grief.
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Old 07-29-12, 08:31 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
Is the OP suggesting that drivers are so simple minded, they can't interpret a signal of a bicyclist pointing to the right? Good grief.
No, I'm not, but given that you self-identified as a motorist and went on to say this:

Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
This issue I have with the raised left-arm, right turn signal is ...[it] appears as though they are scratching their left ear.
I can certainly see how one might have come to the conclusion that drivers are simple-minded.

I will admit that there's a fine line between simple-mindedness and stupidity, but you, as an Ontario motorist, are expected to "know, recognize, and employ when necessary" standard hand signals including the 90° left arm as a condition of being granted a license (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion2.2.2.shtml). Not being able to distinguish between hand signals and ear scratching is particularly damning.

Last edited by chaadster; 07-29-12 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 07-29-12, 10:35 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
This issue I have with the raised left-arm, right turn signal is that most people I see who perform the signal in this manner don't fully bend their elbows and point their left hands towards the sky, which often appears as though they are scratching their left ear. If the signal is not exaggerated, it's not effective.

As a driver of a motor vehicle, I would sooner recognize a signal whereby someone fully extends their right arm to point in the direction he or she wants to turn. It's less ambiguous than someone who doesn't signal properly because he or she doesn't realize that one needs to fully make the signal.

Is the OP suggesting that drivers are so simple minded, they can't interpret a signal of a bicyclist pointing to the right? Good grief.
+1, as also stated in mine & other posts.
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Old 07-29-12, 10:37 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Not being able to distinguish between hand signals and ear scratching is particularly damning.
Damning of the cyclist for not being clear.

Similar to a ride I was on in which the rider in front used the "correct" right hand turn signal with his left hand, but his forearm was at about a 30-40 degree angle, not 90, so riders behind actually thought he was signalling left. As such, as riding moved to his right to be out of the way, but almost crashed as the guy turned right. If he had just stuck his right arm out, everyone would have known the plan.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 07-29-12 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 07-29-12, 10:56 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
Is the OP suggesting that drivers are so simple minded, they can't interpret a signal of a bicyclist pointing to the right? Good grief.
So far, I've found it hard to distinguish the rocket scientist motorists from the non versions, and I found it better to have them all think that I'm going straight through the intersection than left hooking me in their trying to get ahead of me on the street that I turning right onto.
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Old 07-29-12, 11:19 AM
  #133  
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I'm somewhat disinclined to signal a right turn for the same reason, the only problem is there are a significant number of idiot cyclists that will pass on the right if you give them half a chance.
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Old 07-29-12, 11:47 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I'm somewhat disinclined to signal a right turn for the same reason, the only problem is there are a significant number of idiot cyclists that will pass on the right if you give them half a chance.

When making a right turn, unless the cyclist is riding on the sidewalk, I'll generally will force cyclists to pass on my left by moving far to the right as I can, and the further in advance of the turn the better.
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Old 07-29-12, 11:59 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
When making a right turn, unless the cyclist is riding on the sidewalk, I'll generally will force cyclists to pass on my left by moving far to the right as I can, and the further in advance of the turn the better.
Of course that greatly enhances your own right-hookability.

How I like to do it:
Center of lane, signal, check over your right shoulder for cyclists passing on my right.

From the center of the lane you'll have a larger radius turn and can often take the turn without braking.
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Old 07-29-12, 12:21 PM
  #136  
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Hey these cabin fever type posts aren't supposed to rear their ugly head during the primo riding time of the year.

Holy crud mountain out of a mole hill is right.

Last edited by ricebowl; 07-29-12 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 07-29-12, 12:30 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by ottawa_adam View Post
Is the OP suggesting that drivers are so simple minded, they can't interpret a signal of a bicyclist pointing to the right? Good grief.
No, the OP is suggesting that he is so simple minded that he can't interpret a (usually) legal and obvious right-hand right-turn signal.
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Old 07-29-12, 01:12 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
Of course that greatly enhances your own right-hookability.
I can deal with right hooks far better than a head on left hook, plus I only do this type of maneuver when there is a cyclist behind me that would eventually end up to passing on the right if I did nothing to prevent it while I was making an upcoming right turn, which happens on a very limited basis locally.

Last edited by dynodonn; 07-29-12 at 01:21 PM.
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