Personally I didn't find a simple answer to that. Will see about posting some in-depth info once the thread cools fown a bit. Currently I'm looking out the window and looks like there's a foot of snow to deal with - forcast - but still unexpected for this time of year - and its supposed to keep snowing for the next couple days.

And I took the studded tires off the bike :(

Not only don't plastic bikes come with lifetime frame warranties- but what warranties they do come with are usually no warranty at all! -e.g.: The "warranty" will be something like: "If the frame fails in the first 5 years, we'll sell you a new frame at 30% off MSRP"- which is utter nonsense, since no one pays MSRP anyway...and you could likely find a new frame at the same price or cheaper than "MSRP minus 30%" on your own without any warranty. [Especially if that frame is a few years old]

That fact alone tells me that CF is not yet ready for prime time.

Until things chance dramatically, I'll stick with metal bicycles, thank you! Bicycles shouldn't be delicate.

Fiberglass is fine for boats- it was a genuine improvement- in durability; ease of maintenance; and in the freedom of shapes of hulls it allows to be easily manufactured....BUT the fiberglass lay-up on boats is a little thicker than the wall of a CF bike tube..... [Read: "A lot" thicker].

And that fiberglass still needs to be protected by things like gelcoat and bottom paint.

Bet those appeal to guys who had Big Wheels as a child!

Where are you guys getting the idea that no CF bike has a lifetime warranty? You talking about BMX/MTB/CX? Because there are quite a few CF frame road bikes with lifetime warranties.

That's nice :)

I would also say, while on this subject: That when I buy something, -even relatively cheap things, I always consider durability/longevity. I don't buy disposable things. This is why I don't buy inkjet printers. When I buy something, I want it to last a long time....even if I may not keep it forever, at least it can be sold and last someone else a long time- like the steel bikes from the 70's- so many of which are still going strong. How many CF bikes of today will still be viable 40 years from now? LOL! How many CF bikes bought 3 or 4 years ago are dead already?! [If not because they out-right broke in pieces, then because they were "retired" because they got some "damage"- like a scratch- that rendered them unsafe]

The more so when I pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for something.

I may not be emotionally attached to my riding mower...but I take pleasure in the fact that it has served me well for 8 years so far....taken abuse for which it was not intended, and has never let me down nor required any repairs. I got my $1100 worth...and it's still going strong. If I had had to get rid of that mower after 2 years...or if it was unreliable; or had to be babied and cared for like a baby duck....I would be MAD!

Do they give you a new frame for free? Or do they merely sell you a new frame at a slight discount? (I suspect the latter)

Ahh yes the ever present steel haters argument...rust. funny thing about rust, there are steel bikes around from the late 1800's that were made of pipe that rust like crazy due to being unprotected, there still around. Sheldon Brown rode a 1918 Ranger back and forth to work a lot, no worries about his bike rusting away. I had a Schwinn Traveller that I used as a beater and rode on the wet sand of the Pacific coast with the salt ocean washing over it for 15 years and it was stored outside exposed to weather for 20 years too, while it didn't rust away the aluminum components corroded like crazy, and there was some rust inside the BB, but still the frame was solid enough to ride. The vast majority of my road bikes were made in the 80's, all ridden in rain at one time or another, not a spot of rust outside or inside. My kids bikes sold by Walmart made of cheap steel sat around outside in all sorts of weather no rust either; I've seen bikes here stored outside being covered in snow all winter for years and no rust either.

I guess what I'm saying is that this rust issue is way over blown. Not saying it never happens but it's far more rare then a carbon bike cracking.

And your comments where you say this: " have friends that drive old cars and insist the new ones don't have any soul. Piffel they have ABS, fuel injection, stability control, better air conditioning and better fuel mileage and they don't need servicing every 3000 to 10000 miles for plugs:. is mostly not correct. As an owner of older cars we haven't had to change the plugs every 10,000 to 15,000 miles, not the miles you listed which is in error, due to lead being removed from our fuel back in the 70's! Plugs now last about 50,000 miles and more just like modern cars. ABS braking is great braking, nothing wrong with those, because the vast majority of people driving today do not have the skills needed to stop correctly, and non ABS brakes actually will stop a car faster then ABS equipped car. But unfortunately we have people today who can't drive. I drive a 72 Chrysler Newport and driven it on icy roads and have no more problems stopping it then people do with ABS on ice! Stability control is another device for amateur drivers to prevent them from getting into trouble as much. Fuel economy is not as good as you think, there was a car built in the early 70's that got 70mpg with a carburetor called a Honda 600 look it up, and that car is similar in size to the Smartcar and the Fiat 600 and they can't get over 50mpg with all the fancy doodads to get better gas mileage. My 27 Chrysler has a 440 4 barrel carb and I get 20 to 21 mpg. The main reason gas mileage is up and engines last longer is the fact that todays cars have 6, 7, and 8 speed transmissions that allow the car to drive at 70mph at 1500 rpms vs 3,300 rpms with the 3 speed autos, thus the lower rpms means less wear on the engine and more gas mileage. Then of course you failed to mention that older cars are far easier to work on by the home mechanic, and the parts are far cheaper to buy.

Personally your information is so loaded with false information I doubt seriously you have friends who have older cars!

Trek's warranty seems to be lifetime on carbon bikes (except the Session, which is a downhill racer.)
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/support/warranty
As with most warranties, it only covers the original owner.

Other than family, friends or pets no, not if the thing can be replaced. If it is manufactured or should I say still manufactured then it can be replaced. If it is no longer manufactured but still made in a different form it can be replaced. (Old Black and white TV you have to tune with a dial as an example.) I just don't hold to the notion that there is a force or spirit in a machine or tool and because of that spirit gives it an advantage over any other machine or tool designed to do the same thing. If we are talking something that can be trained or in some way adapt itself to the person yep I can get it. I good horse, a fine hunting dog, a hunting falcon come to mind. :D

Like anyone I have had old bikes I liked and for a time thought they were great. But there are reasons they no longer make some of those machines, think 8 mm film projectors. Because what replaced them works better. When I was a kid I grew up with the idea of such things as magic swords and the knives made from special properties because it was romantic and mystical. But once I realized it was the person that made the sword, knife, gun, car, boat, bicycle I decided the magic, mystical, romantic notion was little more than superstition that keeps some people in a box. I now realize it is quality or parts, testing of the process, professionalism of the line worker and the backing of the corporation that makes one tool better than another. Take any of these things away and you can end up with an Edsel. :eek: And I know some people love Edsels.

What is all breaks down into is what the individual likes period. There is no more weight to their preference than there should be to anyone else's preference. When it becomes romantic, or mystical it is not a debate on the subject it becomes a debate on the person and what they believe. That you can't give to a third party to test side by side. That makes it nothing more than bench racing. I understand sentimental value on a gift given by a loved one but that doesn't make that gift the benchmark for the value of an object. IMHO

Is that a personal attack?:lol: You get 20 to 21 in town? Stop and go? With a 440? I won't mention what I might doubt. I didn't mention all the good points of old cars because that wasn't the point. The point is there is "No" mystical advantage to an old car there is simply personal preference. They are machines and have been replaced by better machines. I contend the same thing about bikes.:D

HAHAHAHAHA, wait, please point out where I said I get 20 to 21 in the town. And you use the word mystical? How in the world did you come up with that? I love how people read into stuff these days that simply are not written, stated, or implied.

There are some advantages to new cars, I won't deny that. They stand up better in crashes as far as protecting the occupants, they don't however stand up as good in accidents in regards to the amount of money it takes to fix them after an accident IF they can even be fixed, more times then not their totaled. Air bag deployment alone can cost up to $6,000 to restore depending on the car. While airbags are great they could have done it cheaper with a pull down shoulder belt that would have a belt for each would be linked into one coupling that would be inserted into a seat belt. Funny thing is you don't see race cars with air bags, because the seat belts work. Yet people still die even with seatbelts an airbags.

Like I said before, I'll take simplicity over complication anytime, and I would much rather work on my older cars then any car since the early 80's. Example of simplicity vs complication: I have a 67 Ford Galaxy, the heater core went out, so I simply detached the two heater hoses on either end of intake and out take connections, removed two nuts attached to a plate on the firewall, pulled out the heater core, put a new $32 heater core and refastened everything, it took 10 minutes. Please tell me how much it will cost and how long it will take you to do yours on whatever car you own. That's just one example of many.

But you are right, it's an opinion, you have yours and I have mine, I also contend the same thing with bikes...and that is steel and titanium is better then aluminium or carbon!

It's funny but cyclists are concerned with carry a carbon fiber bike on their car if the bike carrier is holding it in place by the top tube, so they have to buy one that holds the bike by the wheels instead to prevent the top tube from breaking or getting damage. That's the kind of bike I want, a bike I have to treat like glass. You can read about that here on post #22; see: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/gen...ml#post4304999

I did not say that. I said that fiberglass/polyester has no mechanical advantages over CF/epoxy.

No, not "a lot" thicker. For a moderate size fiberglass boat, 1/4" (6 mm) is normal, 3/8" (9 mm) is on the high end. You will usually see "sandwich" construction: a layer of core material e.g. wood or foam, with 6 mm of fiberglass to either side.

Main triangle of a CF bike might be made out of 3 mm thick tubing. Since CF/epoxy is 2x to 4x stronger than fiberglass/polyester, it means that frame walls are tougher than boat hull walls.

Yes, they give you a new frame for free.

Burton; if a bike is crashed, and this is true with any material, the frame manufacture will not give you a new frame for free no matter how long the warranty is. The warranty is strictly for failure of workmanship and materials, not for crashes or fatigue, and a lot of warranties exclude the frame from warranty in the event the bike is used for racing or in a matter not originally intended for the bike meaning taking a road bike and going to the skate park to perform all sorts of jumps etc or taking it off road.

Exactly!

[h=3]THIS WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER:[/h]

There are enough exclusions in there, to deny the warranty for just about any claim, unless one could prove that the frame's failure was due to faulty workmanship or materials- and an individual is NOT going to be able to do that on a one-time failure on one frame- so basically, they're not going to be replacing any frames unless there was truly a manufacturing defect- in which case, that defect would affect many frames.

Go to them 5 years down the road with a claim, and they'd say just by reason of the fact that the frame lasted 5 years, is proof that any issues are not the result of faulty workmanship or materials.

Yeah, but those exclusions cover metal frames too.

You said. "My 27 Chrysler has a 440 4 barrel carb and I get 20 to 21 mpg. "

Still not the point. everything else is nothing but personal preference. You want to work on a car maybe you need a simpler car or a fabrication shop like my son is working with? That is your choice. That doesn't make your choice a better one for anyone else but you. If you value light weight and have to have metal you can get Ti or scandium. If you want stiffness you can get aluminum. That also is personal preference. But the concept that we can't see why someone else would want the new technology labels us as Luddites and I for one would rather stay out of the box even to the point of not yelling "get off my lawn." How you care for your bike aside maybe some people don't like top bar carriers, I don't, never had never will, (not since the exhaust from my 63 Thunderbird coming out of my rear bumper melted the tire on my new Steel Viscount back in the 70s.) So I am willing to buy a Saris Cycle on Pro to carry my bikes. I got it when I had an Aluminum, Steel and Scandium bike. Once again that is purely a personal choice. It has nothing to do with an emotional attachment to my choice in tools. This debate always ends in the same place. The I like the old stuff verses the I like new stuff. And no matter how the conversation goes the people that have already made their choices aren't likely to budge. :eek: I am simply not into emotional reasoning in buying a tool. Sorry:D

Yeah, but how often does a steel, aluminum or titanium frame fail? I doubt anyone's ever uttered the phrase: "Oh no! I dropped my steel frame, now it's ruined! Ruined, I tells ya!".

Metal, I like you, you are consistently entertaining, and perhaps most importantly you are a ball breaker, but you are not quite right on this. A heavy steel frame may well be stronger than the average CF frame. But that is because CF is used more often on the high end stuff at his point. Lightweight steel is a delicate beast. Any light weight frame gives up some longevity by it's very nature. Comparing the strength of a Surly to a carbon frame that weighs under a Kg is apples to oranges. Comparing that CF frame to one of those Rodriguez frames would be more appropriate. I can assure you, that no one owning one of those super thin walled steel race bikes is being casual about letting it drop.

How deliciously prescient....

Why is carbon considered delicate ? Is this just another carbon-hating thread ? Haven't you seen those videos of carbon frames getting smashed with hammers with little or no damage. Darn things are tough. And cheaper to fix than a steel or aluminum frame in many cases.
I may get one some day.

The people at Aston Martin don't think that carbon is so fragile. The body of their super expensive, super fast coupe, the Vanquish, is made out of carbon. Just saying...

I'm enjoying how much Mobile 155 is arguing against having any type of emotional attachment to any inanimate object.

Down with nostalgia! Away with romance! Misplaced empathy is an inefficient use of time and resources.

Are you this cold in real life?

Self-righteous people sometimes have something to hide. Consider that a personal attack, if you need to. But only if you are willing to share your insecurities. (We're all anonymous here)

I'm thinking that an extended warranty can be but isn't necessarily an indication of quality. A lifetime warranty is good PR. Anyone familiar with tools knows that although Canadian Tire, Craftsman and SnapOn tools all have a lifetime warranty - that doesn't make them equal in quality. Bicycles are like that too, moreover, offering a non-transferrable lifetime warranty to the original owner limits possible claims because most bicycle owners get bored of their new toys long before they're worn out, and sell them to buy something newer and even more high tech. But examining frames from a few claims can be an effective way to QC a design and pinpoint ways to improve new ones.

And frames ARE warrantied and replaced - aluminum ones, steel ones and carbon fiber ones. Thats completely aside from crash replacement programs. Which ALSO give a company the chance to see the effects of different failure mechanisms.

The thing I'm picking out between companies like Argon 18 and Cannondale and Norco is that they all use slightly different techniques, slightly different materials (some proprietary) but ultimately are all producing hand made frames. And regardless of how much reseach they claim to have done, CF as a structural component is still relatively new and there is no hard failure mode data available and people are reluctant to commit themselves.

And while its easy to quote numbers - on paper a diamond is harder than steel, but smack a diamond with a hammer and you have diamond dust. So while CF has some definate strength to weight advantages when everything goes right - a number of things can go wrong - some, like delamination, related to QC and some, like accelerated galvanic corrosion due to combinations of factors - the nature of the material, environmental conditions and assembly QC.

So while every company is completely prepared to back their products with a three year or five year or lifetime warranty - the question of 'whats the life expectancy of this frame' starts off with the usual 'it depends' and by the time things are hashed over for a half hour - my impression is that no-one is really sure.

Which is one reason I own two and have been driving one in the winter - I wanna know!

Thanks for your honesty I guess. But no I reserve my attachment for living things. Its the person not the machine in my point of view. I am pretty much the same in real life. If they stop making my favorite watch and mine breaks I don't pine away I get a new watch. If my car breaks down beyond normal repair I get another car. When my bike was smashed I bought a different bike. I don't see the acquiring of things as important as the relationship with people. Nostalgia simply allows you to remember the good and hide the bad. Things I can buy are possessions or tools but at least they are simply things.

I didn't say you can't love your bike, toaster, weed wacker or chainsaw. I said I don't get it. I will save my emotional attachment and romance for friends and relatives thank you very much. You are free to give yours to whatever you want. I am simply saying there is no debating emotion that is 100 percent subjective. If someone is emotionally attached to any thing they can't debate its worth or usefulness.

Now that I have shared please enlighten me about the machines you have formed a romantic attachment for? :lol:

Highlighting things Mr. Eckhardt wrote that I like:

I bought my first road bike in around 1972 or 3 and always thought the steel racer was the epitome.

BUT - I just can't believe that the pinnacle of bicycle technology ended with steel tubes and brazed lugs. It just blows my mind that people think so. A quality built, well engineered CF bike just has so many possible design changes (possibly even improvements) compared to the finite choices for the steel tube, most if not all of which have already been achieved.

Mark me down as an old guy who loves a modern CF frame..... but also has a soft spot in my heart for the aesthetics of a classic lugged steel frame. But I would never be so silly as to suggest that there's anything superior in function inherent in a steel frame. Superior examples in steel? sure. Superior examples in CF... even more likely.