draco_m

I've been out of bicycling for a while. Back now and catching up on the developments over the past 15 years.

Disc brakes are awesome. I picked up a 2013 Scott Scale (29in mtn bike) and simply love the hydraulic disc brakes.

I think I also want a touring/adventure/commuting type bike. The Surly Ogre seems very, very cool.

The specs of the Ogre have me scratching my head. When shopping for my mtn bike, every bike shop told me that hydraulic disc brakes are the way to go. At about the $700/800 price point and above, all the bikes I looked at had hydraulic disc brakes.

Yet the Surly, at the $1,500 price point has cable disc brakes. Why is that? What am I missing here?

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/ogre/bike_specs

Cougrrcj

You need to ask yourself why are automotive 'emergency brakes' or 'parking brakes' still cable actuated? NEXT!?!?

njkayaker

Possibly, easier to repair/maintain in the field.

draco_m

I don't understand. Parking brakes on automobiles are used to keep a stopped vehicle stopped. A parking brake is not used to slow a moving vehicle.

But to answer your question, I think parking brakes on autos are cable-actuated because it is cheaper and lighter. And since the vehicle is already stopped, there is no need for operator modulation. There is also need for adjustment because, again, the vehicle is already stopped.

Cougrrcj

They are also called 'emergency brakes' because they rely on a mechanical (cable) actuation. Not much chance for failure unless the cable is frozen or broken. Which is also why you should always check your emergency/parking brake on your car on a regular basis!

buffalowings

price (saves the maker money if they can sell you a lesser bike for more $$$)
they think they can get away with it because: hopefully the buyer does not notice the chance in specs
they wont notice it because it functions well enough for the intended usage

SmallFront

Because some people think that hydraulic brakes are inferior to cable actuated brakes - you know the type: Has to dragged, kicking and screaming into anything and everything, and whatever they had when they grew up, that was when progress stopped.

SmallFront

Because they are cheap. And they are not called "emergency" brakes because they rely on a cable. They are called "emergency" because 1) It is a secondary brake system, and 2) not to be relied on, other than in an emergency. You know, like that whistle on your lifevest. Not really useful for anything much.

Cougrrcj

But they will work with a failure in your primary (hydraulic) brake failure. That's why they are still required in cars today!

SmallFront

So would a secondary hydraulic system. They are required because you need a parking brake.

Most modern brakes on cars have electric servos, and you need something that will work even with your foot off of the brake pedal. That second bit is the most important one. There is no reason other than cost why a parking brake is a cable: It is cheaper than building a secondary hydraulic system, and even if they did, it would never exert the same force as your hydraulic brake pedal (perhaps with electric servos). Ever tried taking off with your handbrake on? It is quite easy to do. It is not in any way something that comes even close to the hydraulic system in the car, nor is it intended to be.

You can scream "But it is an emergency brake, and therefore it is better to have cable rather than hydraulics on a bike" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that on a car, it is not something that even comes close to its proper brakes, regardless of you calling it an "emergency brake". A whole lot of other people call it what it is: A parking brake (i.e. if it was truly an emergency brake, it wouldn't automatically ratchet "locked" when you pulled it, having to press a button to ease it).

I am well aware that on a bike, there is not that much of a difference, but your car analogy is missing the point - especially when you use it to conclude that cable is better than hydraulics.

Well-installed hydraulics are as maintenance free as it gets and in my experience are far more dependable than cable brakes. Oh, and doesn't change depending on temperatures, and are better for modulation than a springy wire.

Cougrrcj

Total independent redundancy is expensive and weighs a lot. Commercial and military aircraft have independent redundancy, but not cars and certainly not bikes. Cable actuated brakes are still the best (and easiest) solution for bikes - other than a coaster brake!

SmallFront

1) You seem to have lost sight of your own analogy.
2) Who talked about "total redundancy"? Since when is the parking brake such a system? And since when were I even hinting at such a thing? Total redundancy would in effect mean something like parachutes to stop the car - something that wasn't hinging on friction.
3) Since when was the debate about redundancy on a bike? Your claim was that cabled brakes on a bike was better than hydraulics, because a car had a cabled parking br - sorry, cabled "emergency" brake.


Reread point 1 and 2 again. And number 3, if it's still not clear.

You reasserting what you already said, but now with an exclamation mark does not make it any more real. Now, in what way are wire better? Come now, thinking you can read something into the misnomer "emergency brake" has already been shown to be utterly flawed, so try something new. An exclamation mark won't help either.

SnowJob

I know this is a little off topic from the whole emergency brake controversy, but mechanical disk brakes are the way to go for a bike like the Ogre. On a high end mtb, hydros make sense. Your probably gonna set it up the way you want it and leave it there. And you're going to need all the power and modulation you can get if you're doing downhill runs or technical singletrack at speed.

For a bike like the Ogre, which is billed to be an offroad touring rig, you might want to switch it around from time to time. Perhaps you want to put drop bars on there and switch out the flat bar levers for road levers. You can do that with BB7s and other mech disk brakes by simply buying levers made for long pull brakes. Those kind of brakes are also easier to fix or jury rig during a tour when you are far from a bike shop. Cut a line with a hydro disk setup when you're miles away from civilization and you can simply kiss that brake goodbye for the duration of your ride.

Avid BB7s are great brakes. They've got good modulation, great power, and are easy to install and setup. Much better than many low end hydros.

SmallFront

How many people have actually cut their hydraulic brake lines? Seriously?

In reality, it's less trouble to go with hydraulics, because you don't have to adjust much, and you don't have worry about rust or grit getting into the housing - or even cables breaking because you added to much power after the wire has been hit by branch.

I don't see how an off-road touring rig would need any less modulation than a mountainbike. Think kinetic energy. You may be going slower, but you have more mass to stop.

You are right about the swapping of handle bars, but you are paying top dollar for something with cable actuated (= cheaper) brakes and if you don't intend to swap back and forth between drop bars and flat bars, I can't see why you would choose something cheaper and inferior just for the option to later upgrade. Unless of course, you want to swap back and forth and back and forth.

alaskanb3arcub

The owner of the LBS does not recommend hydraulic disc brakes because, among other things, re-cabling is MUCH easier than bleeding, and(as we've noticed) hydraulic discs are a pita to open back up if they are squeezed when there is no disc in place.

SnowJob

I've had hydro disk mtbs and mech disk mtbs. Much prefer cable actuated. Easier to adjust and setup. The brakes on my cross and mountain bikes both have mechanical disk and they function perfectly fine in any kind of weather or terrain. Once in a while I need to turn the caliper dials, and of course replace my pads. Oh yeah, and since I ride all year, I never have to worry about my hydraulic lines freezing up. Since I don't really want to spend hundreds of dollars more to "upgrade", I think I'll stick with the "cheaper and inferior" option.

2manybikes

There is inherently nothing wrong with cable operated disc brakes. They are easier to keep going on the road in case of some problem. Hydraulic brakes are a problem if you get a fluid leak in the middle of nowhere.

SmallFront

If you get a leak, which is much less likely than a faulty or binding cable.

SmallFront

I don't find it problematic to adjust hydraulics when setting it up. In fact, very little "adjusting" is necessary. Of course, as with anything, you need to know what you are doing. The same as with cable.

And that makes it better than hydraulics how?

I ride year-round too, and have never had a hydraulic line "freezing up". Not with my Magura brakes back in the day (Dot 4 I think), and not with my SHimano hydraulics (mineral oil). It is not water in there, so it doesn't "freeze up".

In fact, cable actuated brakes will be much more prone to "freezing up", since crud freezing to the "free" part of the cable will be pulled into the sheeve.

Yes, you stick with them, but we were talking about a bike that is priced so high that it ought to come with hydraulics as standard, and not with the cheaper version it does ship with

IthaDan 

Because there hasn't a viable hydraulic drop bar lever until very recently.

I've been flirting with putting drop bars on my fatbike for grins for a while now, but I get over it when I shop cable actuated calipers worth running.

Surly bikes are rooted in versatility and function. Keeping things cable actuated makes the bike more of a blank canvas than it'd be with hydraulic brakes.

chaadster

I think this is the correct answer, and any drop bar hydrodisc is *well* over $700-$800, and well into several thousand of dollars. I guess there are some MTB hydrodiscs in the $700-$800 range, but not drop bar road, I don't think.

john.b

What about brake failures from hydraulic fluid boil over on long road descents, I guess those problems have officially been "fixed"?

SmallFront

Never had that problem, but then again I don't use the brakes constantly filing away at it.

Mobile 155

Two things you might want to check out.
https://travellingtwo.com/resources/b...l-or-hydraulic

https://www.cxmagazine.com/trp-hy-rd-...oad-cyclocross

Sixty Fiver

There is nothing wrong with good quality cable actuated disc brakes and on a bike that is designed for off road touring, they are much more user serviceable than hydros.

It also keeps the price of the bike down and if one wanted to switch to hydros I am sure that could be arranged.

On an aside... I hate electronic parking brakes on cars... it eliminates one's ability to do handbrake turns and willfully drift a car.