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Perineum Polka

Old 10-12-14, 07:37 PM
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dglevy
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Perineum Polka

Hey all,

I started a thread here about saddle sores that was immensely useful and it just occurred to me that I should also post about another issue to see what sort of experience people have had with it.

I've been having problems with soreness in the perineum. It happens on both my bikes--the racing bike and the TT bike--but, to keep things simple, I'm just going to talk about my TT bike b/c the discomfort is much more acute, thanks to the far more static, hips forward, position.

I took the TT bike out last week to give my new saddle a try -- an Adamo Prologue. The Adamo is much, MUCH better than my old saddle, but I was still feeling a fair amount of discomfort after just a 8 1/2 minute lap. I'm not looking forward to going for longer than that, which is a problem, of course.

I'm not sure what the question should be, so, two questions:

  1. Is it normal to have perineal discomfort on a TT bike?
  2. If it's not normal, is it possible that my TT bike frame is poorly designed? Pictures attached. I was told by my physical therapist--who's a very experienced bike racer--that the frame geometry was not a full-on TT geometry--more like a cross b/w a TT and a racing frame. One thing's for sure: The TT bike wheelbase is 1" shorter than my racing bike (38.0" vs 39.0"). My shoe even hits the front tire when I'm doing a slow speed turn. This strikes me as weird. I would've thought a TT bike would have a LONGER wheelbase than a racing bike.


Or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and the question should be something else.

As always, thoughtful and informed replies are the most appreciated.

Cheers

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Old 10-12-14, 10:11 PM
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It sounds as though you've only ridden the Adamo once. Do you have it set up properly? I have an Adamo ISM Century and you should be sitting far back on the saddle with a bit our your back side almost hanging off the back of the saddle. Most reviews of the Adamo saddles are very positive with respect to relief of the issue you're experiencing; that was certainly my experience. Of course I don't have a TT bike, but understand that the body position is much more extreme than on most road bikes.
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Old 10-13-14, 05:52 AM
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To me that's just a road bike with TT bars.

Pain in the perineum is NOT normal. Even I, who never got along with saddles, never had pain there. In the days before cutouts were invented, my least-hated style of saddles were the ones with slightly more padding in the sitz bone areas, leaving a slight indentation in the middle.
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Old 10-13-14, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dglevy View Post
I took the TT bike out last week to give my new saddle a try -- an Adamo Prologue. The Adamo is much, MUCH better than my old saddle, but I was still feeling a fair amount of discomfort after just a 8 1/2 minute lap. I'm not looking forward to going for longer than that, which is a problem, of course.
How much downtime did you have between your last ride with the old saddle and the Adamo? If your body is irritated or bruised, even sitting on the most perfect saddle will not be comfortable. Perhaps some recovery time is needed?
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Old 10-13-14, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
To me that's just a road bike with TT bars.
Yes, the fact that he's had to use a forward offset seat post is telling.
It will probably be difficult to get a decent fit with that setup.

Anyway, watch this. Bending at the navel is important. Otherwise you're just rolling over onto tender tissue.

Dave Scott Training_Cycling_Aero Bike Fitting.mov - YouTube

You can also watch this one, but you have to be an extremely fit and flexible athlete to achieve this level of aero fit. The Dave Scott position should be used by the average person.

Differences between a road bike and triathlon bike - YouTube

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Old 10-13-14, 10:35 AM
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push the pedals harder , and you take weight off the saddle and your butt.

maybe a Nose less saddle will be better for your needs..

Comfortable or Fast Low and Aero . you have to choose your priorities ..




I agree keep your hips upright bend Forward, in your spine.
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Old 10-13-14, 03:42 PM
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Thanks, everyone, for your replies -- very helpful!

BP, what is it about the bike that tells you it's a road frame?

Android, the reason the seat post is reversed is b/c my physical therapist did that, based on the belief that the frame was more of a road frame than a TT. Kastle is a reputable brand. I don't understand why they would make the mistake of putting the wrong frame with TT bars. But it's still possible, of course. I'm sure bike assemblers have made worse mistakes...
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Old 10-14-14, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post

Comfortable or Fast Low and Aero . you have to choose your priorities ..
There is a way to make that "or" an "and".....
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Old 10-14-14, 09:21 AM
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Gelding?
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Old 10-14-14, 10:45 AM
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Noooo. But that wouldn't help with the perineum anyway.
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Old 10-14-14, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
Noooo. But that wouldn't help with the perineum anyway.
Dang it!! Now you tell me..
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Old 10-14-14, 02:33 PM
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It is quite normal for a bike manufacturer to use the same frame, outfitted with different equipment, to cover two spots n their bike line-up. Generally, for a road frame to be used as a TT or Tri frame, a forward offset seatpost and an aero bar are the main changes.
My first thought when I saw the pic of your bike was that it was a dogs breakfast of parts, the mismatched frame and fork brands being the most obvious. This is not to say that the parts are wrong or somehow incompatible, just that it doesn't look like a 'factory' bike, but one that was put together by a previous owner, or by a shop looking to put a handful of otherwise orphaned parts to use.

As for your assessment of Kastle as a 'reputable' bike manufacturer, I personally didn't know they made any bikes before I read the OP. I wonder if Kastle is not so much a bike manufacturer as they are an alpine equipment manufacturer who sold the rights to use their name to another entity who makes bikes, and the people who make Kastle skis etc, may or may not have anything to do with the bikes. Also, I could not find any evidence that there are still bikes being made under the Kastle name.
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Old 10-14-14, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by J.C. Koto View Post
Dang it!! Now you tell me..

Originally Posted by andr0id View Post
Yes, the fact that he's had to use a forward offset seat post is telling.
It will probably be difficult to get a decent fit with that setup.
Anyway, watch this. Bending at the navel is important. Otherwise you're just rolling over onto tender tissue.
Dave Scott Training_Cycling_Aero Bike Fitting.mov - YouTube
You can also watch this one, but you have to be an extremely fit and flexible athlete to achieve this level of aero fit. The Dave Scott position should be used by the average person.
Differences between a road bike and triathlon bike - YouTube
Thanks. Hugely helpful videos for a newbie TTer! (Road racer here looking to 'keep the shiny side up' from now on...) I've included notes here at bottom in case they are of help to anyone*.

Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
It is quite normal for a bike manufacturer to use the same frame, outfitted with different equipment, to cover two spots in their bike line-up. Generally, for a road frame to be used as a TT or Tri frame, a forward offset seatpost and an aero bar are the main changes.
My first thought when I saw the pic of your bike was that it was a dog's breakfast of parts, the mismatched frame and fork brands being the most obvious. This is not to say that the parts are wrong or somehow incompatible, just that it doesn't look like a 'factory' bike, but one that was put together by a previous owner, or by a shop looking to put a handful of otherwise orphaned parts to use.
As for your assessment of Kastle as a 'reputable' bike manufacturer, I personally didn't know they made any bikes before I read the OP. I wonder if Kastle is not so much a bike manufacturer as they are an alpine equipment manufacturer who sold the rights to use their name to another entity who makes bikes, and the people who make Kastle skis etc, may or may not have anything to do with the bikes. Also, I could not find any evidence that there are still bikes being made under the Kastle name.
Thanks. Very informative.

Yeah, I thought this bike was a dog but it only cost $400 used -- the parts alone are worth more than that. The only reason I say Kastle is 'reputable' is that I talked with an experienced, reliable bike mechanic who said he was familiar with the brand and didn't think it was a bad brand. But I think he probably only saw road bikes. Yes, it's mostly made its name in skiing equipment, judging by my online research.

I'm not sure what the provenance of this bike is. It says "Benetton Sport System" on the down tube. When I bought it, it was good as new -- the pressing seam marks were still on the tires. I really doubt the previous owner spent all that money to convert a road bike into a TT bike. My suspicion is that Benetton contracted with some idiot who didn't know what he was doing. Just a guess.

That reminds me. Once I went into a LBS (Spokes in Vienna, VA) for something or other. A staffer took one glance at the bike and said, "That is so wrong..." I didn't have the presence of mind to ask him why he said that, I was so non-plussed. Might've saved myself some trouble...

Question: Is there an easy way to measure the angle on the seat tube? I don't own any fancy equipment. All I've got is a cheapo protractor for drawing angles on paper. If not, no biggie, I can take it into my LBS and they will do it for me.

*(Notes from the vids in case they help others:
79 - 80 degrees as opposed to 76 degrees. FIST system. Get the back as flat as possible. Elbows farther back on the pads when looking for more power. You don't want the legs hittig the diaphragm, causing problems. On the TT bike, the rider is at 39 degrees femur to back angle. 86 degrees upper arm to torso. Impedes on the hip flexors when the femur/back angle is more acute. Seat back to nose of saddle, angle of 28 degrees relative to horizontal (i.e. tipped slightly up).
with pubic bone details... (a nice moment for some of us [you know who you are!])
dave scott video:
sit back on the seat, fold at the navel. power must come from glutes and hips, not just quads. legs (vastus lateralis) are strong but not as strong at the glutes. 90 - 110 degrees flexion at the elbows. if you're very long, you open up the core and cannot generate as much power.
measure from the sit bones to floor and from pads to floor. the range is 1 - 4" drop from seat to pads. if you put a wash cloth under the pads, see if you can sustain the position. maybe even go as high as 0" drop. with aero bars, you don't have to be in perfect aerodynamic position. you can be optimal for aero but it may not be best for you.)
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