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24 Speed bike yet has 21 speed shifters?

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24 Speed bike yet has 21 speed shifters?

Old 12-07-14, 07:43 AM
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24 Speed bike yet has 21 speed shifters?

I assume I am seeing this correctly unless I am making a noob mistake...

I was looking a bike which has 8 rings in the back and 3 in the front, so that would make it 8x3=24 speed

Yet when I was looking at the shifter specs it says "SHIMANO ST-EF51 EZ-FIRE PLUS 3x7 Speed (21 total)"

I don't understand this, how can the bike be 24 speed yet only have 21 total shifting gears???

Unless I am understanding this wrong.

I basically do not get it, if its a 24 speed bike then shouldn't the shifter say 3x8 instead of 3x7???3x7

How does this make any sense or work

How can the bike be 8x3=24 speed
Yet the shifters are 3x7=21 speed?
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Old 12-07-14, 07:50 AM
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Your understanding is correct.

Sounds like the wrong shifters or the wrong cassette on the bike. Don't buy it unless you are looking for a small project.
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Old 12-07-14, 07:55 AM
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I don't get it though, what is the purpose of having a shifter that doesn't shift into all gears on a bike with more gears then the shifter???
The specs on the bike say 8 rear rings and 3 front rings and I know its a 24 speed so I don't even understand what the purpose is....

Like how is the bike even usable, and even if its usable why would anyone want to buy that bike over a 21 speed which you can go into all gears with the shifters....
What is the point of someone looking at that 24 speed bike if the shifters don't even go to 24 gears...
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Old 12-07-14, 07:58 AM
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Appears those shifters are available in 7-, 8-, and perhaps 9-speed versions. Only the 8-speed shifter will allow indexed shifting with 8 cogs. Typo in the specs?
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Old 12-07-14, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
I don't get it though, what is the purpose of having a shifter that doesn't shift into all gears on a bike with more gears then the shifter???
The specs on the bike say 8 rear rings and 3 front rings and I know its a 24 speed so I don't even understand what the purpose is....

Like how is the bike even usable, and even if its usable why would anyone want to buy that bike over a 21 speed which you can go into all gears with the shifters....
What is the point of someone looking at that 24 speed bike if the shifters don't even go to 24 gears...
Gear spacing between 7 and 8 speed is pretty close, so it could be useable as a 21 speed. You're not getting all 24 speeds though. I have a 14 and a 21 speed bike and they get around just fine so the bike will certainly work but it's a strange setup for a new bike. Probably someone grabbed the wrong shifter when assembling it and they just never noticed. This would indicate a monkey-like skill level of bike assembly and make me question the quality of the rest of the bike.

Maybe point it out to the salespeople and see what their reaction is? Are there other bile shops in the area?
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Old 12-07-14, 08:12 AM
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Were you looking at a bicycle in person or online? The actual rear shifter should be labeled 7- or 8-speed. (Or have an indicator that stops at 7 or 8.)
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Old 12-07-14, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Caliper View Post
Gear spacing between 7 and 8 speed is pretty close, so it could be useable as a 21 speed. You're not getting all 24 speeds though. I have a 14 and a 21 speed bike and they get around just fine so the bike will certainly work but it's a strange setup for a new bike. Probably someone grabbed the wrong shifter when assembling it and they just never noticed. This would indicate a monkey-like skill level of bike assembly and make me question the quality of the rest of the bike.

Maybe point it out to the salespeople and see what their reaction is? Are there other bile shops in the area?
Look at it for yourself...
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Does that not clearly say 24 speed, 8 in the back 3 in the front yet only 21 gear shifter??? That's literally the most ******** thing I seen thus far when researching about bikes or looking at bikes....

I mean I almost was considering that bike until I was looking up what level each component is at, which was my main question nobody ever answered so I had to spend over 8 hours looking all this crap up about which detailers are better than the next. Now I know.

But I did not catch on or realize this bike only had a 21 gear shifter....

I lowered my choices down to two bikes from researching which components are better.

That WAS one of them, but now that I seen that 21 gear shifter I kind of don't want it if I can't even get the full use out of it.

Starting to think about getting another 27 speed bike that I seen with decent components and has the right shifters....

There was this one bike on BD called Gravity Liberty 3, I looked up the components and they are the best out of any bike and it was amazingly cheap, like really cheap for the components it had, however they must have sold out of every damn size besides either very small or very large so I am not going to get it.... otherwise I would have because it was the obvious choice, when I was researching the derailleurs it had the BEST and at a cheap ass price..... too bad no sizes that fit me are left
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Old 12-07-14, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
Look at it for yourself...
Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes - Motobecane Mirage Tour

Does that not clearly say 24 speed, 8 in the back 3 in the front yet only 21 gear shifter??? That's literally the most ******** thing I seen thus far when researching about bikes or looking at bikes....
When it loads for me, the specs list a 7 speed cassette and list the bike as a 21 speed. The derailleur is listed as an 8 speed, but the derailleur doesn't care how many cogs there are as long as the cable pull of the shifters matches, which they should. Possibly Shimano doesn't make a 7 speed only rear derailleur anymore. The crankset is listed as 7/8 speed compatible, that's because both chains are basically the same width.

I'd go for a bike with an 8 speed or higher rear cassette though because that gets you the newer 130mm rear dropout spacing that is far easier to get wheels for than the older 127mm spacing that a 7 speed may be using.
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Old 12-07-14, 08:36 AM
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my main question nobody ever answered.

==================================================================================================== =======

It was a mistake of some kind. Maybe the spec's were writen wrong, maybe the photo is wrong, maybe it was built wrong. Maybe the factory specified it wrong. Stuff happens. **********?
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Old 12-07-14, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
Look at it for yourself...
Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes - Motobecane Mirage Tour

Does that not clearly say 24 speed, 8 in the back 3 in the front yet only 21 gear shifter??? (
No, it doesn't say 24 speed anywhere.
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Old 12-07-14, 08:51 AM
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Shifters SHIMANO ST-EF51 EZ-FIRE PLUS 3x7 Speed (21 total)
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Old 12-07-14, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Caliper View Post
When it loads for me, the specs list a 7 speed cassette and list the bike as a 21 speed. The derailleur is listed as an 8 speed, but the derailleur doesn't care how many cogs there are as long as the cable pull of the shifters matches, which they should. Possibly Shimano doesn't make a 7 speed only rear derailleur anymore. The crankset is listed as 7/8 speed compatible, that's because both chains are basically the same width.

I'd go for a bike with an 8 speed or higher rear cassette though because that gets you the newer 130mm rear dropout spacing that is far easier to get wheels for than the older 127mm spacing that a 7 speed may be using.
Yes you are right... I guess I never realized the derailleur doesn't have to match the cogs.. I guess because they typically put the words "8 Speed" or "9 Speed" next to the derailleur specs so I always went their to see what speed the bike was because typically they list the bike speed besides the derailleurs when they list their bikes....

What is the DIFFERENCE between these two bikes is what I don't really understand.
Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes - Motobecane Mirage Tour = 27 Speed
Save up to 60% off new Hybrid Bicycles | Adventure Hybrid 29er Bikes Elite Adventure Sport Trail = 21 Speed

What I do not understand is if the gearing makes a difference or not compared to how light the bike is or what parts is on the bike or the tires.

What I mean by that is, the road bike that is a 21 speed I assume is lighter or has better road tires but it has less gears where the other bike I assume may not be as light or have as thin of tires but has more gears? Now I understand a mountain bike usually has more gears but that's not a regular mountain bike because it is almost like a road bike but with more gears.

So that's where I am confused.

If I have a bike with 27 gears shouldn't I be able to go up a hill easier than if I had that road bike with 21 gears?
I don't really understand which bike is superior, the road bike has less gears but is built like a road bike while the other bike has more gears and is similar to a road bike but with more gears....

I do not understand which is better, is it better to have more gears while being close to a road bike, or is it better to be build like a road bike and gears do not matter that much? Because I was always under this impression that more gears means more versatility meaning I can go up a hill easier with more gears?
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Old 12-07-14, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
I do not understand which is better, is it better to have more gears while being close to a road bike, or is it better to be build like a road bike and gears do not matter that much? Because I was always under this impression that more gears means more versatility meaning I can go up a hill easier with more gears?
No, more gears doesn't mean that at all. Imagine a bike with only three gears on the rear, with 10, 15, and 20 teeth. Imagine another bike with 10 gears--10,11,12...20 teeth. The fact that the second bike has the same 10 teeth on the one end and the same 20 teeth on the other means that they will take exactly the same amount of effort when you're in the same respective gears. The only difference is that the first bike will have huge jumps as you shift, and the second will have smaller, more manageable jumps. The important factor that determines whether it's easier to go up a hill is the ratio between the front chainring and the largest ( i.e., lowest gear ) on the rear.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:21 AM
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General time line was: the 6 speed Begat a 7 speed in the same spacing , then the 8th cog was added with the same spacing as the 7.

So there is a certain inherent compatibility.

Yes the little ring on a triple will matter when you hit a hill that is not short.. nor shallow in slope.

It is the range of the gear ratios that matters more than a 'Speeds' number .. many of which may be Redundant and overlapping..
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Old 12-07-14, 10:22 AM
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Sometimes 1 look is worth 1,000 guesses.

What are the actual components installed on the bike? Manufacturers frequently upgrade the actual components installed on bicycles in the middle of a product run.
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Old 12-07-14, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Sometimes 1 look is worth 1,000 guesses.

What are the actual components installed on the bike? Manufacturers frequently upgrade the actual components installed on bicycles in the middle of a product run.
Yeah, I had some bikes show up in the shop with different components than what the specs showed. Almost always because the component vendor could not supply enough of the specified parts, so you'd get an upgrade.
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Old 12-07-14, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
So that's where I am confused.

If I have a bike with 27 gears shouldn't I be able to go up a hill easier than if I had that road bike with 21 gears?
I don't really understand which bike is superior, the road bike has less gears but is built like a road bike while the other bike has more gears and is similar to a road bike but with more gears....

I do not understand which is better, is it better to have more gears while being close to a road bike, or is it better to be build like a road bike and gears do not matter that much? Because I was always under this impression that more gears means more versatility meaning I can go up a hill easier with more gears?
number of gears does not guarantee anything about hill climbing. What you need to do is look at the ratio. Smallest chainring (front gears) divided by the largest cog (rear gears). On these two bikes, they are both about the same (28/32 on the MTB, 30/32 on the other). Mostly, more gears gets you smaller steps between gears. Honestly, I have two bikes with 7 speed cassettes and for most riding it's fine. That said, they are older bikes and I'd have a hard time buying a *new* bike with a 7 speed cassette...

What kind of riding do you do?
The flat bar road bike would be great for riding on pavement, smooth dirt roads and smooth dirt trails. Deep gravel, rocks and roots would not be good with the 25mm tires and it doesn't look like there is much room for bigger tires. The gearing is enough to climb any hill out there although a 7 speed cassette is fairly obsolete on a new bike if you are looking to upgrade. The solid fork will be more efficient than a suspension fork however. If you don't really ride offroad, see if there is a similar bike with 24 or 27 speeds. If you ride on lots of gravel and dirt roads but not further offroad, find one that also comes with a 700x32 or x35 tire. Either way, stick with the rigid fork if not riding honestly offroad, just learn to unweight the bike over bumps and rough patches.

The 27 speed bike I'd call a hardtail mountain bike. The 40mm tires it comes with are great for almsot any gravel or muddy road you will find but a bit narrow for serious offroading over rocks and logs. However, the frame will take up to a 2" wide tire (a "29er" tire) so could be changed out easily of needed. The gearing will climb anything and not leave you looking to upgrade. But, if you don't ride MTB trails, the suspension fork will suck energy and add weight. Get this bike if your typical ride will be off pavement, maybe through puddles and mud, loose sand, deep gravel, etc.
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Old 12-07-14, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Caliper View Post
number of gears does not guarantee anything about hill climbing. What you need to do is look at the ratio. Smallest chainring (front gears) divided by the largest cog (rear gears). On these two bikes, they are both about the same (28/32 on the MTB, 30/32 on the other). Mostly, more gears gets you smaller steps between gears. Honestly, I have two bikes with 7 speed cassettes and for most riding it's fine. That said, they are older bikes and I'd have a hard time buying a *new* bike with a 7 speed cassette...

What kind of riding do you do?
The flat bar road bike would be great for riding on pavement, smooth dirt roads and smooth dirt trails. Deep gravel, rocks and roots would not be good with the 25mm tires and it doesn't look like there is much room for bigger tires. The gearing is enough to climb any hill out there although a 7 speed cassette is fairly obsolete on a new bike if you are looking to upgrade. The solid fork will be more efficient than a suspension fork however. If you don't really ride offroad, see if there is a similar bike with 24 or 27 speeds. If you ride on lots of gravel and dirt roads but not further offroad, find one that also comes with a 700x32 or x35 tire. Either way, stick with the rigid fork if not riding honestly offroad, just learn to unweight the bike over bumps and rough patches.

The 27 speed bike I'd call a hardtail mountain bike. The 40mm tires it comes with are great for almsot any gravel or muddy road you will find but a bit narrow for serious offroading over rocks and logs. However, the frame will take up to a 2" wide tire (a "29er" tire) so could be changed out easily of needed. The gearing will climb anything and not leave you looking to upgrade. But, if you don't ride MTB trails, the suspension fork will suck energy and add weight. Get this bike if your typical ride will be off pavement, maybe through puddles and mud, loose sand, deep gravel, etc.
Thanks for informative reply, I do not know if this is true or not, the ONLY reason I was not looking at a lot of 24 speed bikes was simply because I thought I read something about 24 speed bikes being of lesser quality or harder to find parts. When I say quality I mean this. For example I was trying to research which derailleurs are better, sort of like cars, a Honda is alright, a Benz is better and a Lambo is the best.

I was looking up which derailleurs are better and in which order. I am not sure if this is true or not, but I thought I recall reading someone saying that 24 speed bikes have certain derailleurs simply by being a 24 speed bike. I could be wrong though.

Like I know which derailleurs are better, I know that for Mtb's ALIVO and DEORE derailleurs are suppose to be better than the 2 or 3 derailleurs before it in order of worst to best derailleurs, or at least I hear ALIVO and DEORE are good and better than other derailleurs, then of course there are few derailleurs that are more expensive and better than those. Basically I am saying, based on my research ALIVIO and DEORE are suppose to be good, not the top of the line but good and better than some other ones, thus when I seen those derailleurs on that Motobecane Elite Adventurer I assume that the bike should be pretty good since it has good derailleurs compared to another bike that does not have those derailleurs but worst.

And I realize that there is a order from worst to best when it comes to road bikes from what I read.

Like I read for road bikes the order is like this CLARIS, then SORA, then TIAGRA and after that are the more expensive parts that serious people get.

So I was using this information to see how good a bike is, I am not sure if this info is correct or not but I was assuming it was true.

So for example, I seen a bike that had 3 TIAGRA parts, it was only $450 on sale (they are sold out of the size I want). So because it has TIAGRA parts I automatically think to myself that bike will have better parts because from what I read TIAGRA is above both CLARIS and SORA thus any bike that has CLARIS is under a bike that has TIAGRA, am I right or no??? In terms of how good the derailleurs are.

So that is how I am basing on what to buy, when I look at a bike I am looking for those NAMES, if I see a two bikes, one with CLARIS and one with TIAGRA I would assume to pick the one with TIAGRA because its the same price and those parts are better based on the info I have been reading.

So I was interested in that Motobecane Elite Adventurer because I herd ALIVO and DEORE are good and not bad.
If I seen another bike that had a derailleur name that is under ALIVO and DEORE then I would assume that bike is not as good, or at least that's what I been doing.

*What Kind of Riding am I doing*

Mainly on the road but I do go on trails but they are not trails with big chunks of gravel or logs or giant sticks, they are those sandy/light gravel trails, it looks like gravel but like a sandy gravel, not gravel as in little rocks but more like sandy fine gravel that is dusty, you know the annoying gravel that gets in your shoe if you walk on the trail because its so light the dust kicks up. There might be a part where there is a rock or two but for the most part the only trail I ride on is a trail that is not that thick and it goes on for hours strait with no big obstacles, its mainly a trail.

But most of the time I will be on the road around town, however I usually stay on the side of the road where the white lines are, I get on the road only when I can keep up with cars, I get on the side if I am not fast enough to keep up with the cars, and I WILL go on a sidewalk that nobody if I have to get on the sidewalk to get across a intersection or something. So typically it looks like this.

Around my house the roads are not that heavy with traffic, therefor I can usually ride on the road with only a few cars once in a while, however when I leave further away from my house and go into any part of town there is more traffic so I can't be in a lane on the road because cars obviously go faster and I would be holding them all up, therefor when I am truly riding around town I stay on the side of the road most of the time, the only time I am in the lane on the road is if I can either keep up with traffic or no cars or on the road, if I see a car coming and I know I would hold it up, I usually just move to the side and let it pass then get back on the road.

So to sum it up, on the road most of the time, some sidewalk action, on big roads I am on the side of the road where their may be small rocks not big ones but small ones from cars pushing it to the side of the road, and I am sometimes on a very light rail that goes on for hours.

If I had to put a % It would be like this

30% on the road, 30% on the side of the road (so basically 60% of the time on the road), 10% of the time on a sidewalk, 30% of the time on a trail.
If you want to break it down more that means basically

60% of my riding is on the road
30% of my riding is on a fine trail (because I have to travel in a van to get to this trail because this trail is not near my house)
10% of my riding is on the sidewalk

Oh, lastly, I am not saying 24 speed bikes suck, I just read something that says certain speeds for example a 24 speed bike has usually a certain derailleur, where as a 27 speed bike might have a better derailleur. Not sure if that's true or not.

I had a lot to say but I don't know if it would clear anything up about what I am looking for.
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Old 12-07-14, 05:44 PM
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If I were buying a new bike, I too would not want a 7-speed cassette. Or even an 8-speed. Mind you, I have a 7-speed in my stable and there's nothing wrong with the way it works. I'm somewhat limited in the gear it can take, though. Chains are cheap, at least! OTOH, at that price point I'd rather see build costs going toward better components instead of a chintzy pogo fork.
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Old 12-07-14, 05:51 PM
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Def 7spd drivetrain:



The derailleur is just 8spd capable.
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Old 12-07-14, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
I don't get it though, what is the purpose of having a shifter that doesn't shift into all gears on a bike with more gears then the shifter???
The specs on the bike say 8 rear rings and 3 front rings and I know its a 24 speed so I don't even understand what the purpose is....

Like how is the bike even usable, and even if its usable why would anyone want to buy that bike over a 21 speed which you can go into all gears with the shifters....
What is the point of someone looking at that 24 speed bike if the shifters don't even go to 24 gears...
i don't usually point out spelling errors or misuse of words, but i think you might have a typo here. it happens.
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Old 12-07-14, 06:16 PM
  #22  
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Just curious.

Lets pretend both of these bikes where on the road, which one would win in a race between these bikes and I will create the imaginary road course.

Lets say both bikes start on a flat road the length of a street, then at the end of that street is a steep hill the size of a street, at the top of that hill is another flat road and lastly at the end of that road its all down hill. Every street is on the road.

Now which bike would be superior, the 21 speed bike or the 27 speed bike, based on everything, the weight the gears, the parts, ect.

If these two bikes where racing to win which would come at the finish line, which would make it up the hill faster and which would be the winner.

I am curious
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Old 12-07-14, 06:59 PM
  #23  
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The first one is a road-ized hybrid. The second one is a road-ized mountain bike. My vote would probably be for the first one to be faster overall, since it has road tires and a rigid fork. But that might depend on the hill. For instance if the grade is such that you could climb it in 2nd gear on the 29er, the 7-speed wouldn't have that gear and you'd have to shift all the way to first, which would slow you down more. That 6-tooth jump to first gear on the 7-speed is huge.

Neither one will be particularly fast.
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Old 12-07-14, 07:15 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
If these two bikes where racing to win which would come at the finish line, which would make it up the hill faster and which would be the winner.

I am curious
On pavement, the 21 speed bike from above would win because of the 25mm tires (less resistance) and rigid fork (less wasted energy). Gearing and body position (wind resistance) are the same between both.

I'm not a Shimano guy so don't know the heirarchy of their parts, but in general Shimano makes solid components that work. My experience running SRAM parts is that they all work and moving up the scale is really to get lighter weight.

Honestly, I'd recommend a cyclocross or touring type bike for the type of riding you describe. They run wider tires (widths in the 30-38mm area vs 23-28) than typical road bikes to help with rough or loose surfaces. I'm a big fan of drop bars, they will give you more hand positions for longer rides and the drop position will let you ride faster with less effort. Something like this: Save up to 60% off new Disc Brake Road Bikes - Gravity Liberty 2 | Save up to 60% off new road bikes

If you really prefer the flat handlebar, something like this would work great: Save Up to 60% Off Shimano Disc Brake Flat Bar Wide Tire Hybrid Bikes | Fixie | Windsor Bikes - The Hour | Save up to 60% off Hybrid and Shimano bicycles
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Old 12-08-14, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ICEN View Post
Lets pretend both of these bikes where on the road, which one would win in a race between these bikes and I will create the imaginary road course.
Who cares? Are you buying a bike to enter a race? The winning bike would be the one with the strongest rider,every time. If they were ridden back-to-back by the same rider,then it would be whichever had the tallest gearing. All of which is moot because none of this has anything to do with how well the bike fits you,how well it rides,and how you like the handling. As I said in the other thread,stop poking around the Internet looking at specs and stats,and go ride some bikes in real life to see what you think of them.
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