bowlofsalad

Hello,

Which bicycle hub components will keep bearing lubrication clean and dry longer? Another way to say this is what will provide the longest maintenance intervals for bearing lubrication? Longevity and reliability are what I have in mind.

I am looking for some new hubs, 36 hole with robust lubrication protection. I prefer the idea of cartridge bearings as they are replaceable, very few cups in cups and cones are, but I may be open to both.

I've also been looking for scientific studies on this idea that I'd love to read if anyone knows of any. Some might make vague suggestions without understanding the subject or knowing much about it, but what I'd really like to see are statements backed up with some degree of science and knowledge.

Thanks a bunch for reading.

JanMM

Peer reviewed research articles on the efficacy of cups and cones with loose bearings versus cartridge bearings? That would be nice. I don't think such an animal exists.
Personal experience - I have never had to overhaul a hub with cartridge bearings. Hubs with conventional bearings I had to overhaul regularly.
Because cartridge bearings have spoiled me....I neglected the hubs of my wife's bike and now need to find some new cones for the rear wheel.

Jeff Wills

I would go for Shimano Deore or Deore XT hubs. These have decent contact seals on the bearings, and you can easily install new balls and replace the grease. This will take about an hour. In very heavy use, you'll have to do this once a year.

It's not a bad idea to adjust the cups & cones of new Shimano hubs once they're built into wheels. They tend to be delivered too tight from the factory.

I've used Shimano hubs for most of my cycling career (35+ years). The only one that failed in use was a Frankenstein, made up of pieces from other hubs and then neglected to the point that there was severe rust inside.

Like Jan, I doubt there is scholarly research on the difference between cartridge and cup & cone bearings as it applies to bicycles. Bicycles put very little stress on bearings.

JanMM

Agree with Jeff that Deore (or other good quality conventional) hubs will keep on rolling with relatively minimal maintenance.

Leebo

Do you want your hubs to last longest, or just the maintenance period between changing bearings. Mileage and use? Don't ride in the rain or dusty conditions. Touring or mt biking? Ge a good quality hub and change bearings as needed. Just like a chain, a wear item. I like Hadley, Chris King, Dt Swiss and Phil Wood are others. White too.

bowlofsalad

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement or I wrote my question poorly. This isn't cups and cones versus cartridge bearings. This is about keeping bearing lubrication clean longest and which components do the job better/best. The research that would have been done compares various hubs, shielded, sealed or some combination, and makes observations over various distance intervals concerning how clean the lubrication is.

A lot of people are consumed by how well their wheels roll, but dirty lubrication means wildly higher drag and a destroyed or very soon to be destroyed component. I hope I am not spitting in your face when you attempted to answer my question, I appreciate the effort, I just wanted to clarify.

You pretty well spell out how I've done things in the past, shimano, cups and cones, repacked once a year or so. I've found as I have become a much more frequent rider(especially when considering really long tours) that I end up ruining the races in cups and cones, it's disappointing. I actually very recently trashed a deore hub. I could step up the relubrication to every 2-6 months(probably should consider distance intervals rather than time intervals) and keep going with these types of hubs, but I really feel that there must be some options with far better options for keeping the lubrication clean and dry. I cringe at the thought of junking another wheel/hub because the races are ruined. Not being able to replace key components turns a hub from serviceable to consumable if it turns out the salty, sandy slush or whatevers' on the road was too much for the hubs. So, I find myself radically leaning towards cartridges as I know on every bicycle hub a cartridge can be replaced entirely, races and bearings, not just the bearings and cones

bowlofsalad

Thanks for the reply. I am looking for longer maintenance periods. What this should also equate to is better component durability in a greater range of riding conditions. Cleaner lubrication will simply mean longer hub bearing life.

I sometimes ride in less forgiving conditions. In the cycling world, good quality usually means light weight with the least amount of drag possible. My searches didn't really turn up much on the subject of maximum lubrication protection any varying degrees of it. I am sure there are different degrees of protection.

fietsbob

Wilderness Trail Bikes designed a way to re grease the bearings in Place , Grease-Guard.. So the new grease purged out the old..

but their designs were either coming thru them at a High Marin County California Custom bike Cost.

Or licensed and Made by the defunct now, Japanese Sun Tour Company..

A To the cartridge It self Enduro 90% fill bearings are a race of entirely balls .

A submersible pump bearing seal, is part of Phil's specs.

hueyhoolihan

over a span of 35 years and maybe 100,000 miles and now with eight bikes, i've never had to replace or service a cartridge bearing. nor have i worn one out. that goes for BB bearings and headset bearings too. i have a couple loose ball-bearing headsets that i use and hubs too. they require periodic dis-assembly, cleaning greasing and reassembly, something i'd rather not do.

Elvo

Chris King or White Industries

RR3

Phil

Maybe Rohloffs but i have not experience here..

fietsbob

Rohloff resolves the issue with a regular Flush cleaning and re lubrication .. so the seal does not have to be perfect just resists intrusion from the outside.

Still have the wheels off my 85 specialized Expedition, .. Suzue placed a shield outside the cartridge bearing ..

Sachs BB used a shaft packing in the BB cup outside of the bearing cartridge in the center so best seal is actually a series of seals .

Booger1

The only way to keep the outside from the inside of bearings totally,is to pressurize the hub...No matter what type bearing or seal.

Short of that,pressure differences will insure moisture gets past the seals over time.Everytime you bring your bicycle from your warm house/garage to the colder outside,moisture is being drawn into the hubs.

Or you can go the Bearing Buddy way,like on trailers.They pack the hub with grease,so there is no air/little air to contract and pull stuff in.

fietsbob

pop the seal offand stuff in More grease , as it rolls it may liquify and leak out .. then Repeat.

Dave Mayer

Shimano mountain bike hubs have the the best seals of any I've come across. And their freehub design is the best in terms of axle load bearing and prevention against water and dirt intrusion. An additional benefit is that replacement balls and cones are easy and inexpensive to source.

Unlike a certain high-priced POS cartridge bearing hub that I've been working on for the last 2 weeks. It took me 3 days to extract the cartridges from the freehub, and it will take another 3 weeks for the new (hard to find) bearings to be delivered from China.

The best wet weather hub I've ever come across are old Campagnolo Record freewheel models. Basically unsealed. When you've spend the last 3 hours riding in a downpour, you insert your handy grease injector g_u_n and completely flush them out. Takes less than 5 minutes to apply new grease.

cyccommute 

How many other cartridge bearing hubs have you worked on? Maybe the design of the Campy hub you are working on isn't the best but I've had lots of other cartridge bearing hubs that are simple to work on and don't require any kind of special cartridges. I've had to replace two cartridges out of about 15 cartridge bearing hubs I've owned. I've replaced far more cones even on the "sealed" Shimano hubs. The Shimano ones are better than they used to be but they aren't as good as a cartridge bearing.

The real advantage of a cartridge bearing hub is that you don't have to worry about component "durability". With loose bearings, if you contaminate the bearings with sand, the sand can chew up the cones and, worse, the cups. The part is ruined. A cartridge bearing hub doesn't care if you contaminate the bearings to the point of seizure. If the bearing goes bad, you replace the whole unit and move on. The hub can't get damaged due to contamination of the bearings. Thus it really doesn't matter what bearings you have or use.

That said, I would place White Industries and Phil Woods on about the same level. I have a Velocity hub, I have a Specialized Stout, I've owned some Cannondale Omegas (on my daughter's bike and one of the two bearings I've replaced) and I've owned Sun Tours (the second one). There may have been a Suze in there as well. There is nothing wrong with any of the other hubs than the Whites or the Phils but those have feature which put them on a higher level.

White Industries are super smooth and, with a titanium freehub body, incredible light. They are a bit cheaper than Phils. They aren't quite as easy to take apart if you need to.

Phils aren't quite as smooth as the Whites...although pretty good...and they aren't as light but they come completely apart with a 5 mm allen wrench. The front needs the axle to drive them out but the rear just falls apart. For a touring bike, this feature is particularly nice because the gear cluster and freehub come off as a unit and no cassette ******* is needed to replace broken spokes (they tend to break on the drive side). The bearings just slip right out and slip right in. No driving them in nor out.

I have 3 sets of Phils (two road and one disc). The road versions have about 15,000 and 10,000 commuting and touring, respectively on them. Neither has ever be opened nor do they need it. I have 2 sets of Whites as well but they don't have as many miles on them. None of them have needed anything done to them either.

nfmisso

Phil's are beautiful, and made less than a mile from where I live. That said they are not in my budget. I use Wheelmaster's 40H "tandem" hub, the front is 100mm, the rear 135mm; with cartridge bearings. The rear come apart with a 5mm hex (allen) key like a Phil. The 40H hub are about $30/$35 each front/rear, they also have 48H version for about $15- more each.

I don't know if they are the best sealed hubs out there, but as noted IF you ever have to replace the bearings, it is easy, and the bearings are available at any industrial supply house or Amazon or .....

JanMM

Currently rolling on six Velocity cartridge bearing hubs on three bikes. (Not sure who they are actually made by.) The oldest hub may have 7-8,000 miles and is still very much smooth enough. I'll report back when I have to replace bearings.

RR3

I have a set of White hubs that are 20+ years old and they do need a new set of bearings although they really don't have a ton of miles on them, maybe 15,000 at the most....I have the original booklet from when I built them up and it says send them back and they will replace bearings for you....maybe I should take them up on the offer. A set of Phil 40h and 48H that have have seen a lot of wet and dirty conditions and they are still good....maybe similar miles as the White but wheels that have been lived on for months at a time in lousy conditions and the bolt one solid axles are nice to have. I am particularly fond of Dura-Ace hubs because the seals are pretty darned good and the cone and cup with loose balls are perfect but I would not put them on a touring bike. They are on a wet weather rando and my basic slop bike. The seem to roll better than other hubs that I have.

We have it good now. Remember repacking pedal bearings.....several times on a tour. And now I think greasing my Speedplays once a week or every other is a chore.

JanMM

The KKT pedals I used long ago had well-ventilated bearings.

bowlofsalad

Ut oh, someone didn't read the original post and some of the thread. I completely agree that not being able to replace the cups is a horrific downside to (nearly all) cup and cone style bearings. I've gotten rid of entire wheels because the races were obliterated, this feels entirely unacceptable for myself, I think this is true for around 99% of other cyclists, but what do I know? A lot of people probably don't like to think of it this way, but if you need to replace the bearings, you need to replace the races. Replacing a cartridge bearing means both races are new and smooth, a pleasant idea to some. However, durability and maintenance intervals still and always will matter.

So many idle brand names and opinions listed without any science or factual statements relating to the original topic.

Phil wood can go feel wood, proprietary parts are BULL SHIX, not only is it a crappy money grab but it also brings the availability of parts down about a gazillion percent. I'll pass on phils wood. The ease of removing the cartridge bearings sounds nice, but removing and installing cartridge bearings isn't exactly technical or an art to begin with. Yank em out, crank em in, snooze fest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGVCbIWV1oc

Check out simplybearings(.co.uk), they do a great job of laying out various options, I have yet to find a website as good or better for bearings. A lot of people look to the quality of a hub based on how they perceive it's rolling resistance. While that is fun I guess, it really stands as irrelevant to the discussion and painfully anecdotal. I am sure these words come off as inflammatory, that isn't the intention.

What I am trying to say is there are various types of cartridge bearings beyond just their physical dimensions, and several options to choose from within those bearing dimensions. The differences aren't mild or vague either. There are letters and numbers after(and before) a 4 digit dimensional code that mean things, important things. In cups and cones, you are stuck with whatever you got with it as far as the hubs ability to keep the lubrication clean and dry. Find the cartridge bearing code of your favorite hub and look for it at simplybearings. There are going to be options that relate to varying types of shields, seals and even materials. Extremely intriguing. Bearing Closures - Bearing Seals and Bearing Shields | AST Bearings This might give some illustrations and explanations to help understand the differences between shields and seals.

If you want to get your hands dirty (but not your bearings) https://www.skf.com/binary/83-179206/...ls_6270-EN.pdf this article looks like a decent bit of reading to do on this subject.

Dave Mayer

The bearing cups on better Shimano hubs are replaceable. I have done it several times. It takes the same amount of work and tools as replacing a cartridge bearing.

It takes an immense amount of neglect to kill the cups on a set of XTR or Dura-Ace hubs, but I have seen it done. I assume they were playing saltwater bike polo for 10 years.

Anyway, the cup diameter on the rear hubs is 28.0mm, which makes XTR and Dura-Ace cross compatible, and for some strange reason, compatible with older Campagnolo freewheel hubs. And compatible with 6001 cartridge bearings. I have done this too, punch out the non-drive side cup and replace with a cartridge, appropriately pre-loaded.

So run the economics.... You can pay big $ for some small-fry boutique hubset with limited engineering, cheap CNC fabrication, marginal customer support, and an impossible to source freehub. Or get a set of - say second-hand Dura-Ace 7700 hubs (best ever) that have conservatively a one year service interval. Complete teardown and reassembly takes about 20 minutes.

Every part of the 7700 hub is easily replaceable except the hub shell.

cyccommute 

I did read the original post and your question is rather poorly framed. I'm not the only one who is unsure of what you are asking for.

Durability of "bearings" is different from durability of the hub. That's why I made the statement about the component durability. The "component" is the hub. The bearings are only a part of that component. But, as you said, a destroyed race for loose bearing hubs is a destroyed hub and a destroyed wheel. A bad cartridge bearings don't mean that the wheel will ultimately be useless.

I'm not sure what you mean by "idle brand names". Only a couple aren't made anymore (definitely Suntour and maybe Omega). The rest are active brands.

As to your "original topic", there really isn't one. You can go an look up your own science if you like but good luck on that. There's not a lot of research being done on bearings right not. Wheel Energy tried to measure the energy looses in bearings and it was too small to measure with the equipment they had. It's not enough to worry about. They appear to be looking at different greases but I doubt what they find will be earth shattering.

The video shows a very elaborate procedure for changing out the bearings. It's not as easy as you make it out to be on most hubs...especially when compared to disassembling a Phil Wood hub. Phil Wood hubs are "field" serviceable and all you need to replace the bearings is the axle of the hub itself. Look at that video again and see how much work is involved in getting the bearings out and getting them back in.

And I don't know of any more "proprietary" parts in a Phil Wood hub than, say, an Shimano hub. Finding cones for many Shimano hubs can be extremely difficult. I can get replacement bearings for a Wood hub at any autoparts store and several other sources that aren't automotive related. They use a standard bearing.

Booger1

If a cartridge bearing freezes up and spins in the housing,you can have some issues.....so they are not screw up proof either.

Doug5150

Not bicycle-specific, but anyway:
1) Get hubs that use cartridge bearings.
2) Remove the bearings.
3) Order a set of sealed replacement bearings that is either A) stainless, B) hybrid or C) full ceramic. "Sealed" means that the bearings have PLASTIC side covers on them, and not metal side covers.
4) Gently pry out the side covers and clean the original grease off of all three parts.
5) Put one seal back in and pack the bearings with teflon powder. You can buy jars of it at a place online named Spurlock Tools.
6) Put the other seal back in.
The teflon powder is the most-slippery lubricant there is and it will not leak out, dry out or lose its lubricating properties over time--but it doesn't protect the metal from rusting, so you must use bearings that only use stainless steel or ceramic in them. No carbon steel bearings!

~~~~~~~~~

What size were the bearings, and what hub are they for?

Normally you can just measure the outer dimensions of bearings and replace them with any that are the same type & dimensions. Sometimes they have a custom ID number on them, but that isn't important. The outer dimensions is all you really need to match.

It would be extremely unusual for a bicycle company to require a custom-size of bearing, since there is already about 300 different sizes that are "standard" already and that can fit in your hand.